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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 08:06am
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Question about traveling...

I understand that two steps are completely legal. For instance, if a player picks up the ball after making his last dribble with his right foot planted, his next two steps would proceed with the left foot, followed by the right foot. His left foot would be his pivot foot.

But what if upon picking up the ball after making his last dribble with his right foot planted, he doesn't take the step with his left foot, followed by right? Instead, he decides to skip with his right foot (step 1) and then takes the next step (step 2). So now the right foot is his pivot foot.

Do you guys get what I'm saying? It's kinda hard to explain.

It's still two steps on the second example, but there seems to be a lot of confusion about it, because the unorthodox player skips, and it really throws off the rhythm of the defense.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 09:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatgamer View Post
I understand that two steps are completely legal. For instance, if a player picks up the ball after making his last dribble with his right foot planted, his next two steps would proceed with the left foot, followed by the right foot. His left foot would be his pivot foot.
2 steps are not legal in your cases. Player picks up the ball with his right foot planted, then the right foot is the pivot foot. He/she may lift the right foot, but not return it to the ground. Travelling violation if they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatgamer View Post
But what if upon picking up the ball after making his last dribble with his right foot planted, he doesn't take the step with his left foot, followed by right? Instead, he decides to skip with his right foot (step 1) and then takes the next step (step 2). So now the right foot is his pivot foot.
2nd example is also a travel. Player picks up the ball with right foot planted. Right foot is the pivot foot. At this point they may pass/shoot/call-TO. If they "skip", they're lifting the pivot foot and returning it to the ground. Travel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatgamer View Post
It's still two steps on the second example, but there seems to be a lot of confusion about it, because the unorthodox player skips, and it really throws off the rhythm of the defense.
Of course it is unorthodox...it's illegal. Don't know where you heard 2 steps is legal, but if you're an official, or studying to be one, it's best to get that concept out of your head fast.

Last edited by ma_ref; Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 09:24am.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 09:20am
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What You Have is a Traveling Violation

If I am understanding your description, I believe your understanding of two steps is not correct.
Here is case book quote [I have added the emphasis]:

4.44.3 SITUATION C: A1 receives a pass and establishes the right foot as the
pivot. While faking a pass or try, A1 lifts the pivot foot and stands on the left foot alone while undecided as to what to do. Has A1 traveled? RULING: No. Traveling would occur only if A1 begins a dribble or returns the pivot foot to the floor. While in this position A1 may pass, try for goal or call a time-out.

When A1 has right foot on floor when picking up dribble, that's the pivot foot (see highlight below). A1 can step with the left, and pick up the right (pivot foot), but A1 must either pass or shoot before the pivot foot touches the floor again. This would be your so called second step.

Here is the Rule Book Quote:
4-44
ART. 2 . . . A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop,
and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land
on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.
b. If one foot is on the floor:
1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both.
Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

ART. 3 . . . After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is
released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball
is released on a pass or try for goal.
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.
ART. 4 . . . After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot:
a. One or both feet may be lifted, but may not be returned to the floor before
the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. Neither foot may be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.


The NBA may let these two steps go, but under NFHS when that right foot hits again, I got a violation.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 09:24am
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Sorry, I'm not an official, so I don't know how to put this in officiating terms.

From what I've learned, you can take TWO STEPS where you're not dribbling the ball.

For example, if a player makes his final dribble with his right foot, he can step with his left foot (which is now his pivot foot), followed by his right foot, and then he can score a layup, shoot the ball, or pass, etc. I know that's perfectly legal.

However, what if the player makes his final dribble with his right foot, skips on that same foot (establishing it as the pivot foot), and steps with the left foot? Is that legal?
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 09:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatgamer View Post
Sorry, I'm not an official, so I don't know how to put this in officiating terms.

From what I've learned, you can take TWO STEPS where you're not dribbling the ball.

For example, if a player makes his final dribble with his right foot, he can step with his left foot (which is now his pivot foot), followed by his right foot, and then he can score a layup, shoot the ball, or pass, etc. I know that's perfectly legal.

However, what if the player makes his final dribble with his right foot, skips on that same foot (establishing it as the pivot foot), and steps with the left foot? Is that legal?
Forget the two step thingy. Read what golfdesigner wrote. That sums it up.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 09:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfdesigner View Post
If I am understanding your description, I believe your understanding of two steps is not correct.
Here is case book quote [I have added the emphasis]:

4.44.3 SITUATION C: A1 receives a pass and establishes the right foot as the
pivot. While faking a pass or try, A1 lifts the pivot foot and stands on the left foot alone while undecided as to what to do. Has A1 traveled? RULING: No. Traveling would occur only if A1 begins a dribble or returns the pivot foot to the floor. While in this position A1 may pass, try for goal or call a time-out.

When A1 has right foot on floor when picking up dribble, that's the pivot foot (see highlight below). A1 can step with the left, and pick up the right (pivot foot), but A1 must either pass or shoot before the pivot foot touches the floor again. This would be your so called second step.

Here is the Rule Book Quote:
4-44
ART. 2 . . . A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop,
and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land
on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.
b. If one foot is on the floor:
1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both.
Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

ART. 3 . . . After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is
released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball
is released on a pass or try for goal.
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.
ART. 4 . . . After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot:
a. One or both feet may be lifted, but may not be returned to the floor before
the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. Neither foot may be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.


The NBA may let these two steps go, but under NFHS when that right foot hits again, I got a violation.
Okay, I might be referring to the NBA. I did not know that in NFHS, you're only allowed to take one step. This is completely new to me, and it seems like it would be pretty tough to adjust to that kind of rule. I don't even know how you'd be able to generate any kind of rhythm laying it up, when you can only take one step.

So you're saying this would be illegal in NFHS?

YouTube - Kobe Bryant cross-over layup Team USA vs Argentina

In the video, Kobe Bryant makes his last dribble with his left foot on the floor, takes TWO STEPS and lays it in.

Last edited by greatgamer; Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 09:41am.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 09:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indianaref View Post
Forget the two step thingy. Read what golfdesigner wrote. That sums it up.

golfdesigner's addresses the rule that coincides before you dribble the ball.

If the ball hasn't been dribbled, you can only take one step. I know that.

I'm talking about when you're attacking the basket.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 09:54am
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Greatgamer, read the section 4-44 Article 2, it deals with catching the ball while moving or dribbling..
Attacking the basket doesn't give one liberty to run with the ball.

Last edited by golfdesigner; Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 09:56am. Reason: Add'l comment.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 09:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfdesigner View Post
Greatgamer, read the section 4-44 Article 2, it deals with catching the ball while moving or dribbling..
Okay, so that's two steps. First is the pivot. I already knew that.

So, as I was saying, is skipping allowed, as long as it conforms to that rule?

For example, the player stops dribbling with his right foot, skips and lands on his right foot (pivot foot), followed by the left foot and lays it in.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 10:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatgamer View Post
Okay, so that's two steps. First is the pivot. I already knew that.

So, as I was saying, is skipping allowed, as long as it conforms to that rule?

For example, the player stops dribbling with his right foot, skips and lands on his right foot (pivot foot), followed by the left foot and lays it in.
Skipping is not allowed. A player may lift the pivot foot, but may not put it back down. Your example above has a player bringing his pivot foot back down. If he's skipping on his non-pivot foot, it's still illegal as it constitutes a jump, which is a travel upon landing.

Furthermore, the rule that allows the commonly perceived two steps works when a player picks up the dribble in the air, just after leaving the floor. Next foot down is pivot, and the foot after that can come down one time before jumping for the shot.

FWIW, I believe the rule is the same in the NBA, but I'm not sure.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 11:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatgamer View Post
Okay, so that's two steps. First is the pivot. I already knew that.

Someone else posted something very similar to this thread within the past week or so. Search for it.

Then, get rid of the "2 steps" (or 1 step or 1.5 steps) from your vocabulary -- whether you're a fan, a player, a coach or an official. Think of it in terms of "moving the pivot foot in excess of prescribed limits."
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 11:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
"moving the pivot foot in excess of prescribed limits."
Always listen to bob.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 12:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatgamer View Post
Okay, I might be referring to the NBA. I did not know that in NFHS, you're only allowed to take one step. This is completely new to me, and it seems like it would be pretty tough to adjust to that kind of rule. I don't even know how you'd be able to generate any kind of rhythm laying it up, when you can only take one step.

So you're saying this would be illegal in NFHS?

YouTube - Kobe Bryant cross-over layup Team USA vs Argentina

In the video, Kobe Bryant makes his last dribble with his left foot on the floor, takes TWO STEPS and lays it in.
It was a travel also under FIBA rules, they are just the same as NHFS and NCAA in this case.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 07:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eg-italy View Post
It was a travel also under FIBA rules, they are just the same as NHFS and NCAA in this case.
The play was perfectly legal. Pause the video at 22 seconds. When he ends his dribble by touching the ball with both hands, his left foot is clearly not on the floor. His right foot is his pivot foot. He strides with that foot on the court and steps with his left foot. He jumps off his left foot without ever putting his right foot (pivot) back down and shoots.

There is no traveling violation here.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 08:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The play was perfectly legal. Pause the video at 22 seconds. When he ends his dribble by touching the ball with both hands, his left foot is clearly not on the floor. His right foot is his pivot foot. He strides with that foot on the court and steps with his left foot. He jumps off his left foot without ever putting his right foot (pivot) back down and shoots.

There is no traveling violation here.

WOW! You're right! Knowing it was Kobe, I just assumed the play was illegal.
All is not lost, though. Dial up some Lebron video. You will see a travel soon enough.
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