traveling question

[pitchfork]

If a player ends his dribble in the air and comes to the floor on a legal one count jumpstop(player can declare either foot as a pivot foot) can the player then jab with his right foot(this declares the left foot as the pivot foot), crossover with his right foot,lift his pivot foot(left foot) jump off his right foot and shoot the ball before his pivot foot hits the ground again. I learned this move in high school in Iowa and it was called the jumpstop step through and it was never called traveling. Whenever my kids execute this move properly they get called for traveling. A very good High school ref told me that after the two count that both feet must leave the ground at the same time or it is a walk. I disagree, the only time you don't have a pivot is if you land with two feet on a two count. I have two other dads on my team,one who played for Lute olsen and another who played in the NBA for 11 seasons who have never seen the move I desribed above and they both think it is traveling. I learned this move in the 70s from Ralph Miller.Have the rules changed since I played in the 70s or did the refs in Iowa let us all get away with traveling.

[Jurassic Referee]

If the airborne player lands on both feet simultaneously, then the move that you described is legal.

[JRutledge]

First of all let us deal with language. I do not know what a one count jump stop is. A jump stop is when a dribble is stopped on one foot and the dribbler jumps off of that foot and lands with both feet simultaneously. Neither foot can be considered a pivot foot in this case. And neither foot can be lifted and put back down before a shot or pass is completed. You cannot stop a dribble while in the air. Your terms like "one count" or "step through" have nothing to do with rulebook language and frankly are confusing to officials that are using the rules as their guide.

I can tell you that I have seen legal jump stops called traveling by many officials that are not used to seeing that move. Also the move is not executed very well at the lower levels.

I have did not officiated in the 70s do I have no idea what the rules were. There is nothing in the rules about counts. You either have a pivot foot established or you do not. Traveling is really all about the pivot foot and what you do with it before you dribble, shoot or pass. You need to throw away the "count" language when talking to officials that know the rules. I hear this all the time and I do not know what people are talking about.

Peace

[Adam]

Describe the stop, first. As you wrote it, I'm picturing player in the air catching the ball (or stopping a dribble), jumping off one foot and landing on both simultaneously. If so, then this is a jump stop and it's a travel as soon as the player lifts one foot and puts it back down.
If the play is actually a player in the air catching the ball (or stopping a dribble) and landing immediately on both feet simultaneously, this is not technically a jump stop. Player may then choose a foot to be the pivot, just as if he'd caught the ball with both feet on the floor.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

I learned this move in high school in Iowa

Were you talking about navigating in the rinky dink Ref's room in George Iowa?

[pitchfork]

JRutlege

one and two count is reffered to in the NBA rulebook. Last time I looked(it's been a few years) the NCAA rulebook had a section on the jump stop. Ending the dribble before taking off on one foot and landing on two feet, no pivot foot allowed. And a jump stop ending the dribble in the air(or after jumping..I cant't remember the exact wording) and landing on two feet, either foot can be used as a pivot foot. We used to work on picking up the dribble after jumping off one foot so we could use either foot as our pivot foot after landing on two feet. This is very easy to do if taught properly even with kids as young as 11-12. Do you agree that after establishing a pivot foot you may step with the other foot, lift your pivot foot and shoot before the pivot foot touches the ground again? This sometimes looks funny since large distances can be covered without dribbling but I believe it is legal.

[Adam]

What your describing isn't a "jump stop" by definition. And yes, it's not traveling until they put their pivot foot back down on the ground.

I think what may be happening is that the refs are thinking it's a jump stop because the players are catching the ball barely after lifting off from their foot.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

JRutlege JRutledge

one and two count is reffered to in the NBA rulebook.

I am not aware of the NBA rulebook and what it says. I cannot comment on what the NBA rules are. I only work NF and NCAA rules sets.

Originally Posted by pitchfork

Last time I looked(it's been a few years) the NCAA rulebook had a section on the jump stop. Ending the dribble before taking off on one foot and landing on two feet, no pivot foot allowed. And a jump stop ending the dribble in the air(or after jumping..I cant't remember the exact wording) and landing on two feet, either foot can be used as a pivot foot. We used to work on picking up the dribble after jumping off one foot so we could use either foot as our pivot foot after landing on two feet. This is very easy to do if taught properly even with kids as young as 11-12.

Just so you know the NCAA and NF rulebooks use basically the same exact language for the traveling definition.

Originally Posted by pitchfork

Do you agree that after establishing a pivot foot you may step with the other foot, lift your pivot foot and shoot before the pivot foot touches the ground again?

It is not about whether I agree or not, what does the rules state? Traveling in the NF and NCAA rulebook is all about the pivot foot and when it is established. If a pivot foot is established, you can move any non-pivot foot in any way and lift the pivot foot as long as you are not starting a dribble.

Peace

[pitchfork]

snaqwells

The refs here in california have told me they dont have a problem landing on two feet and establishing a pivot foot, they have a problem lifting the pivot foot while the other foot is on the ground while attempting a shot. I have been told by high school refs you can pivot but must jump off both feet at the same time. I disagree but I no longer have my players attempt to use this move as there is much confusion .

[Jurassic Referee]

Pitchfork, which one of the are you talking about?
1) If you end the dribble in the air and land with both feet simultaneously, then either foot can be the pivot foot.
2)If you land on one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot foot.
3) If you land on one foot and jump off that foot to land simultaneously on both feet, neither foot can be the pivot foot.

From your original description, it sounded as if you were describing #1. If so, the subsequent move is legal. If not, let us know whether you're talking about #2 or #3.

Same rules in high school and college for at least the last 50 years btw. Nothing has changed iow. Never try to apply NBA rules to games not using those rules.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

snaqwells

The refs here in california have told me they dont have a problem landing on two feet and establishing a pivot foot, they have a problem lifting the pivot foot while the other foot is on the ground while attempting a shot. I have been told by high school refs you can pivot but must jump off both feet at the same time.

That makes no sense at all. It's always legal to lift the pivot foot before a shot or a pass. (It's travelling to replace teh pivot foot on the floor or to lift it before starting a dribble) It's never required to jump off of both feet at once. The officials are wrong.

[Adam]

If the officials are telling you it's traveling to lift the pivot foot and jump off the other foot, then they're wrong. The problem is, there's not much you can do about it but teach your kids to do something different. What level are you talking about here?

Finally, what's the deal with all the ex-Hawkeyes on this board?

[just another ref]

Though not in the books, it pays to speak the language of the layman. When I speak of counts, it refers to the sound(s) one hears when one foot or two feet simultaneously hit the floor. When people start to question me about what is legal and what is not, many discussions have ended when I tell them there is no legal play that involves a three count after the ball is caught.

[pitchfork]

Jurassic Referee
I'm talking about senerio #1, end dribble in the air that is clearly in the rule book . No offense JRutledge but I believe Jurassic has it crrect you can end the dribble in the air. Is that a direct quote from the rule book, Jurassic?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Though not in the books, it pays to speak the language of the layman. When I speak of counts, it refers to the sound(s) one hears when one foot or two feet simultaneously hit the floor. When people start to question me about what is legal and what is not, many discussions have ended when I tell them there is no legal play that involves a three count after the ball is caught.

It might be good to speak in layman terms, but when talking about counts has nothing to do with what the rules says. If I land on one foot and that is your pivot feet, then you can step (or count) as many times with the other foot. It is misleading when using the term counts and many times people say things like "one and a half counts" that is traveling. The problem is I do not know how you "half step." This is why I always bring a conversation back to what the rulebook says when taking to coaches and players. I tell them which one was the pivot foot and what they did or did not do with it.

Peace