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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 01:52pm
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Question about Stat on Foul - Block

Please excuse any bad nominclature on my part. I am a coach - stat man, not an official.

A1 has the ball and is driving for a layup. B1 (The defender) cleanly blocks the shot. About 2/10 of a second later (we have video), B1 falls into A1 and official correctly calls foul. The sign was a "PUSH". So should the block count as a block, or did the foul negate the block? Not that it matters score wise, but I want to be accurate in scoring the stats. My thinking is if the block attempt caused the foul, it is negated, but in this case, the contact was below and clearly after the block.

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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 01:55pm
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Most of us would not know unless we had some background in stats. There are no rules that tell us what constitutes a block, assist or steal. As an official (alone) we are no more qualified to know this than you would.

I would assume that if a foul is called you would not get credit for a block. But that is a big assumption on my part. And you know what they say about people when they assume.

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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 02:01pm
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And you know what they say about people when they assume.
They officiate in Nevada?
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 02:03pm
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That is cold.

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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 02:03pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Most of us would not know unless we had some background in stats. There are no rules that tell us what constitutes a block, assist or steal. As an official (alone) we are no more qualified to know this than you would.

I would assume that if a foul is called you would not get credit for a block. But that is a big assumption on my part. And you know what they say about people when they assume.

Peace
That was my initial thinking too, UNTIL I considered the case of two defenders where one cleanly gets a block and the other fouls well after the block on the follow through. In that case, we would award a block for one and a foul for the other.

Maybe what I am also saying is that if the call was during the block, I would agree, but since the foul occurred after the shot, that is why I am asking. I guess it doesn't matter too much as long as I consistantly apply the same rule the rest of the season.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 02:05pm
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That was my initial thinking too, UNTIL I considered the case of two defenders where one cleanly gets a block and the other fouls well after the block on the follow through. In that case, we would award a block for one and a foul for the other.

Maybe what I am also saying is that if the call was during the block, I would agree, but since the foul occurred after the shot, that is why I am asking. I guess it doesn't matter too much as long as I consistantly apply the same rule the rest of the season.
Personally, if it was clearly after the block, I'd give them the block. But, I'm an official. There are a few stat folks around here that would know more than I do on this, though. Perhaps Statman will answer.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 02:09pm
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Maybe what I am also saying is that if the call was during the block, I would agree, but since the foul occurred after the shot, that is why I am asking. I guess it doesn't matter too much as long as I consistantly apply the same rule the rest of the season.
I think that is a good question. As officials we have no direct insight under the rules to know what the right thing to do is. Now in baseball, there are rules of stat keeping in the rulebook. Fortunately or unfortunately, there are no direct rules on stat keeping in basketball.

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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 02:31pm
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If the officials awarded two free throws, then it does not count as a FGA or blocked shot, because the player was fouled in the act of shooting.

If the officials awarded possession of the ball out of bounds, then the foul occurred separately from the try, so it's a blocked shot.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 02:31pm
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The block would not be recorded if the foul occurred on the shooter while still in the act. At least that was the rule of thumb we always used. I would make the assumption that the lead stat guy for the university knew what he was talking about since he did it for several decades. But don't quote me on it

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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 03:32pm
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i had a very similar situation last week. A1 went up for a shot and B2 blocked his shot, but before A1 landed safely back on the floor (ending his attempt) B2 fell into A1 causing a foul. So, Im not certain but that one shot attempt was a foul on B2 so there is no block since his shot attempt was never completed.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 11:13pm
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Here are the relevant parts from last year's NCAA stat manual.

§ 1-1-a: A FGA is not charged if the player is fouled in the act of shooting before the ball is in flight and the goal is not made.

§ 1-4: Article 4. When a player shoots and is fouled after the ball clearly is in flight, a FGA is charged. If the shot is made, then whether it was in flight is not important; either way, the shot will count and a FGA must be charged and a FGM credited. If the shot does not score, the number of free throws awarded, if any, may help indicate if the shot was in flight. [...] If there still is doubt as to whether the ball was in flight, the interpretation shall be that it was not.

A.R. 1. (This also appears in Section 7, A.R. 5.) Adams shoots and is fouled by Brown. (a) The foul occurs before the ball clearly is in flight and the shot is made; (b) the foul occurs before the ball clearly is in flight and the shot is missed; (c) the foul occurs before the ball clearly is in flight and the shot is blocked by Benton; (d) the foul occurs after the ball clearly is in flight and the shot is made; (e) the foul occurs after the ball clearly is in flight and the shot is missed; or (f) the foul occurs after the ball clearly is in flight and the shot is blocked by Benton. RULING: In (a) and (d), charge Adams with a FGA and credit with a FGM. In (b) and (c), do not charge Adams with a FGA. Without a FGA, there can be no blocked shot credited in (c). In (e) and (f), charge Adams with a FGA and credit Team A with a dead-ball rebound. Also, in (f), credit Benton with a blocked shot.


###

Also from §7:

A blocked shot is credited to a player any time the player appreciably alters the flight of a FGA and the shot is not made and goaltending is not called, or while in the obvious act of shooting the ball is stuffed or knocked loose before it is in flight and no foul is called.

###

NFHS is similar; NBA and FIBA could be different.

This was enlightening for me, I once was told that unless a foul was speficially called after the shot, an FGA was not charged. Maybe we need some rule myths for statisticians as well
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Last edited by Stat-Man; Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 05:28pm.
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