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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 12:20pm
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Thumbs down Second T Needed?

So I made the mistake of helping a friend by working a kids BB tourney this weekend. 3 games Sat and 3 on Sun.

First game on Sunday a Dad tells me he has me on video and is going to turn me in. Not sure to who as kids tournament's in our area aren't governed by any groups. The game had the usual 3 T's and an intention foul. Also a great no call at the end of the game (that's mostly what the dad was angry about).

Second game usual no one is happy but we call a good game. 3 intentional fouls in the last minute. You would think after the 1st one or maybe the second one the players would learn to play the ball and not shove to foul. There were only 3 int's because we ran out of time.

Third game coach is mad about every call. His team is up 30 with 20 seconds left in the game. We are shooting a free throw and on the rebound one of his players is boxed out pretty aggressively but NOT a foul. As the player goes up the court he yells at me JC get them off of me. So we have a T with 12 seconds left in the game.

I report the T and go to the coach and tell him what the player said so he knows why I would call a T that late in the game. The coach then says to me "he's right isn't he?" The coach is sitting, and doesn't say it that loud.

At that point in the game I had had enough but I didn't T the coach. In a Varsity game would that be enough to give the coach a T?
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 12:38pm
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whack!
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 12:51pm
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Boy, I don't miss those Saturday's. Who was Dad going to turn the tape in to? Has the league penalized you yet? Have they helped you out and thrown you out?

lI would have ignored the last statement as well. It sounds like you had enough action. Maybe your partner could have stepped in and been near the bench at the time? Either way, nice job of taking care of business. We don't give out technicals, we simply assess them when earned.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 12:52pm
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Maybe not in varsity (depending on how much of a pita the coach had been up to this point; but definitely in kiddie ball.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 12:55pm
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In this case, I'd probably hold off on the T for 3 reasons:

First, and probably most importantly, if this guy had been riding you the whole game, why wait until 20 seconds left to whack him? You probably should've handled this in the first 3 or 4 minutes of the game, shown the coach the stop sign, and told him enough is enough. Anything further warrants a T.

Second, you just went and told him what his player said without having been asked what happened. I don't justify any of my calls to coaches unless they ask. Since he had been riding you the entire game, any conversation you have with the guy is likely going provoke a negative response from him, so why increase the chances?

Third, he's sitting and you two are the only ones that heard the comment. If he threw out a more explicit comment involving words that young children shouldn't hear, then I'd whack him.

But it sounds to me like this was one of those games that just couldn't end soon enough. No need to prolong it with a delay for 2 meaningless shots.

That's my .02
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 01:01pm
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Originally Posted by ma_ref View Post
Second, you just went and told him what his player said without having been asked what happened.
You don't explain to the coach what their player did to get a T, unless they ask?
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 01:01pm
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I don't justify any of my calls to coaches unless they ask.
I don't feel I have to justify any of my calls even if they do ask. If they have an applicable question that they ask appropriately - fine - I'll answer at right time - but I don't justify.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 01:02pm
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Originally Posted by ma_ref View Post
In this case, I'd probably hold off on the T for 3 reasons:

First, and probably most importantly, if this guy had been riding you the whole game, why wait until 20 seconds left to whack him? You probably should've handled this in the first 3 or 4 minutes of the game, shown the coach the stop sign, and told him enough is enough. Anything further warrants a T.

Second, you just went and told him what his player said without having been asked what happened. I don't justify any of my calls to coaches unless they ask. Since he had been riding you the entire game, any conversation you have with the guy is likely going provoke a negative response from him, so why increase the chances?

Third, he's sitting and you two are the only ones that heard the comment. If he threw out a more explicit comment involving words that young children shouldn't hear, then I'd whack him.

But it sounds to me like this was one of those games that just couldn't end soon enough. No need to prolong it with a delay for 2 meaningless shots.

That's my .02
All those, in my opinion, are valid reasons for holding back in a varsity (or even jv) game. Kiddie ball (meaning anything where you'd be working 6 games in 2 days) is different for me. I take much less at this level.

Your final point, though.... You're already shooting two T shots, may as well add two more.

That said, your first point is good, even for this level. I'd have still called it, but there's no reason to let any coach ride you for more than 2 trips down the court. At some point very early, "Coach, you might not agree with what I call, but I'm not going to have you questioning every single call."

Next up, "That's enough, coach."

Next up, "tweet!"
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 01:14pm
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You don't explain to the coach what their player did to get a T, unless they ask?
Nope. Most of the time, they already know what happened (heard something the kid said, saw something they did, etc...). Most of the other times, the kid that got whacked doesn't usually surprise the coach as having been T'd, since it's happened several times in the past.

I'm not saying it's good to be anti-social on the court, but generally the less you talk to a coach, the better...
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 02:05pm
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Originally Posted by Ch1town View Post
You don't explain to the coach what their player did to get a T, unless they ask?
I only talk to coaches if they ask a question that requires answering -- offering extra information that they didnt ask for can only lead to potential unwanted crap. I tell new officials dont talk with coaches unless

a. they ask a question and you are responding
b. you HAVE to address something with them
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 02:14pm
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Get the game over with...no T on the coach...have you learned your lesson? Next time just say "no!"
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 02:31pm
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Originally Posted by Ch1town View Post
You don't explain to the coach what their player did to get a T, unless they ask?
Exactly. But usually (as in always in my experiences) the coach will ask. But I'm not going to initiate any dialogue on the subject.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 02:37pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Exactly. But usually (as in always in my experiences) the coach will ask. But I'm not going to initiate any dialogue on the subject.
I hear you, I guess it's a local thing.

Pre-game:
You T the coach, find a partner discuss & go opposite
You T a player, find a partner discuss & stay table-side for explanation.

Never whacked a kid & the coach didn't want to know why...
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 02:39pm
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Never whacked a kid & the coach didn't want to know why...
True, but I've had times where the coach didn't ask because everyone heard it.
And it's always a quiet, "What did he say?"
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 02:44pm
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Originally Posted by Ch1town View Post
I hear you, I guess it's a local thing.

Pre-game:
You T the coach, find a partner discuss & go opposite
You T a player, find a partner discuss & stay table-side in case an explanation is needed.
Fixed it for you.

Quote:
Never whacked a kid & the coach didn't want to know why...
Yes you have -- you just described it. Of course, you gave an explanation anyway. That's why we're suggesting a change in your approach.
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