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Old Tue Dec 09, 2008, 11:43pm
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Question Help Educate a Dad!

Preface: I'm a dad of a 5th grade AAU hoops playing girl. I've read through the NFHS and NCAA rules, but I am aware that reading and application of the rules are two different things. I also know that the judgment of the official plays an important role in calling a game.

So for my own edification, I'd like to pick your brains on a few situations.

1) Team A has the ball in their frontcourt. A1 (perhaps for reasons known only to her) dribbles the ball back toward the division line. In doing so, the ball and one foot remain in the frontcourt, but her other foot straddles the line into the backcourt. This has occurred on several occasions, and in most instances, there is no call, but on occasion it has been called as an over-and-back. What is the correct call?

2) Team A has the ball in the low post (let's say A5). Defender has established a legal guarding position. A5 backs in, and using her rear end, makes forceful contact with the defender, knocking her back a half-step or so. This continues until A5 pivots to make her shot. This happens on multiple possessions by A, and the only time a call is made is when the defender leans into (braces for?) the contact and is whistled for blocking. Does the action by A5 constitute a foul?

This last one was a situation I observed in a game preceding my daughter's:

3) Game held in a small gymnasium, with the stands and player's benches no more than 2 feet from the out of bounds line. 2nd OT, score tied with about 5 seconds on the clock. A has the ball in their frontcourt. Their point guard makes a cross court pass to her teammate, but that player had decided to cut to the lane. The ball hits in the vacated spot and bounces towards B's bench. There is not a player close enough to make an attempt at a save. The ball is heading OOB, bouncing directly at B's bench. A seated bench player reflexively/defensively grabs the loose ball just before it strikes her in the head.

There is an immediate whistle, and the official signals a technical against the bench player for what sounded like "interference". Under the league rules, a T is an automatic award of 2 points (they don't shoot the FT).

Is that a reasonable call, and if so, is there anything the bench player could have done to avoid the infraction?
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Old Tue Dec 09, 2008, 11:49pm
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1. BC violation.
2. Foul on A1 if B has legal guarding position.
3. You just had to be there.
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Old Wed Dec 10, 2008, 12:12am
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1. BC violation
2. PC foul by A1
3. OOB by Team A. Throw-in for Team B.
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Old Wed Dec 10, 2008, 06:44am
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  1. BC violation
  2. PC foul by A1
  3. Had to be there.
    But in general, if in your judgment there was a definite chance that A could have made a play on the ball, I support a technical foul. If there is not a definite chance, then I have nothing beyond the OOB call with B getting the throw-in. Many variables comes into play: Were any A players aware that the pass was errant, other than original passer? Were any A players even trying to get to the ball? If so, did you think that they could have definitely reached the ball?
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Old Wed Dec 10, 2008, 08:41am
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First, welcome to the forum. It's great to have non-officials come here to ask real questions, rather than trying to talk about the NBA MVP race.

Second, thank you for presenting plays and NOT criticizing the officials, even when you suspect that they may have gotten the call wrong. Oftentimes, the officials who work middle school games are just learning themselves. They make mistakes, and I personally appreciate that you didn't come here simply to rip them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakivegas View Post
1) Team A has the ball in their frontcourt. A1 (perhaps for reasons known only to her) dribbles the ball back toward the division line. In doing so, the ball and one foot remain in the frontcourt, but her other foot straddles the line into the backcourt.
As others have already said, this is a backcourt violation. Once the ball attains frontcourt status and there is team control, then if any part of the ball or the player holding or dribbling the ball touches the backcourt (which includes the division line), it's a violation.

P.S. -- the rules for having frontcourt status are slightly different, depending on whether the player is holding or dribbling the ball; but in your play, there is definitely frontcourt status.

Quote:
2) Team A has the ball in the low post (let's say A5). Defender has established a legal guarding position. A5 backs in, and using her rear end, makes forceful contact with the defender, knocking her back a half-step or so.
Strictly speaking, this is a player control foul on A5. The defender is dislodged from a legal position, and this is a foul. However, you'll see that this is tolerated a bit more at each higher level simply because the players can absorb that contact better. If the defender is truly dislodged and not simply giving ground, however, it should be a player control foul.

Quote:
3) Their point guard makes a cross court pass to her teammate, but that player had decided to cut to the lane. The ball hits in the vacated spot and bounces towards B's bench. There is not a player close enough to make an attempt at a save. The ball is heading OOB, bouncing directly at B's bench. A seated bench player reflexively/defensively grabs the loose ball just before it strikes her in the head.
If, as you say, there was no player close enough to make a play on the ball, then this should simply be an out of bounds violation on the offense.

The only time I might consider a technical foul in a play like this one is if the bench player reached inbounds to grab the ball when an opponent had a chance to save it. If the bench player is simply sitting there and the ball comes right at him/her, there's nothing to penalize, IMHO.
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Old Wed Dec 10, 2008, 12:01pm
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Thanks for the great feedback! I coached Little League long enough to develop a healthy respect for officiating crews. Human error is to be expected, but you guys do a difficult job.

My interpretations of (1) and (2) were correct. And the contact in (2) is not of the "shuffling in" variety. It is definitely step-step-contact. This is a big girl, and she can get some momentum going.

On (3), I was sitting high up in the stands, opposite the benches and along A's frontcourt. At the time of the pass, A1 was to the right and above the 3 point apex extended. There were two other offensive players to the right side, bunched near the low post. Left side low post player and her defender (Man defense) were at or below the block. When the intended recipient of the pass made her cut, her back was to the ball, and she dragged her defender.

The pass had some zip on it (overhead, like a soccer throw-in), and it hit in a pretty wide expanse of empty court. The low post player saw the pass, but was at least 3 strides from where the pass landed, much less the sideline. I don't think any player had a remote chance of making a play.

I felt bad for the bench player that got whistled for the T. I'm sure she felt like she lost the game for her team. The court layout gave very little room to maneuver.

In that situation, is there any way to avoid the violation? If a play is being made to save the ball and the bench player makes an attempt to get out of the way but still contacts the ball, is that okay?

Thanks again for the feedback!
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Old Wed Dec 10, 2008, 12:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakivegas View Post
The pass had some zip on it (overhead, like a soccer throw-in), and it hit in a pretty wide expanse of empty court. The low post player saw the pass, but was at least 3 strides from where the pass landed, much less the sideline. I don't think any player had a remote chance of making a play.

I felt bad for the bench player that got whistled for the T. I'm sure she felt like she lost the game for her team. The court layout gave very little room to maneuver.

In that situation, is there any way to avoid the violation? If a play is being made to save the ball and the bench player makes an attempt to get out of the way but still contacts the ball, is that okay?

Thanks again for the feedback!
Another *Welcome to the Forum*.

No "T" on the bench, Yakivegas.
Official kicked the rule that Scrapper1 described.
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Old Wed Dec 10, 2008, 12:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakivegas View Post

In that situation, is there any way to avoid the violation? If a play is being made to save the ball and the bench player makes an attempt to get out of the way but still contacts the ball, is that okay?

Thanks again for the feedback!
Yes.
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Old Wed Dec 10, 2008, 12:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakivegas View Post
3) Game held in a small gymnasium, with the stands and player's benches no more than 2 feet from the out of bounds line. 2nd OT, score tied with about 5 seconds on the clock. A has the ball in their frontcourt. Their point guard makes a cross court pass to her teammate, but that player had decided to cut to the lane. The ball hits in the vacated spot and bounces towards B's bench. There is not a player close enough to make an attempt at a save. The ball is heading OOB, bouncing directly at B's bench. A seated bench player reflexively/defensively grabs the loose ball just before it strikes her in the head.

There is an immediate whistle, and the official signals a technical against the bench player for what sounded like "interference". Under the league rules, a T is an automatic award of 2 points (they don't shoot the FT).

Is that a reasonable call, and if so, is there anything the bench player could have done to avoid the infraction?

What referee wants a third OT when there is an automatic 2 points on a T??

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Old Wed Dec 10, 2008, 01:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachP View Post
What referee wants a third OT when there is an automatic 2 points on a T??

Of course, why didn't i see this before? This was Padgett's game?
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Old Wed Dec 10, 2008, 01:12pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Of course, why didn't i see this before? This was Padgett's game?
As most of you probably guessed, there was a lot of (vocal) speculation that the official just wanted the game over. True, there were games to follow, but I prefer to think that it was just a booted call, not an intentional act to close out the game.
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Old Wed Dec 10, 2008, 01:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakivegas View Post
As most of you probably guessed, there was a lot of (vocal) speculation that the official just wanted the game over. True, there were games to follow, but I prefer to think that it was just a booted call, not an intentional act to close out the game.
Speculation aside, you're most likely correct.

And if the player is making an attempt to avoid the ball, she's fine. Just sitting there is fine.

Even if the other team was trying to save it, and it looks instinctive when she reaches up to stop it from hitting her in the head, that's fine.
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Old Wed Dec 10, 2008, 01:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Of course, why didn't i see this before? This was Padgett's game?
Please - don't mention the term "OT". I just ate.
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Old Wed Dec 10, 2008, 01:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Speculation aside, you're most likely correct.

And if the player is making an attempt to avoid the ball, she's fine. Just sitting there is fine.

Even if the other team was trying to save it, and it looks instinctive when she reaches up to stop it from hitting her in the head, that's fine.
Yup. Safety first would say that anyone can prevent a bal from hitting their head.
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Old Wed Dec 10, 2008, 01:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakivegas View Post

3) Game held in a small gymnasium, with the stands and player's benches no more than 2 feet from the out of bounds line. 2nd OT, score tied with about 5 seconds on the clock. A has the ball in their frontcourt. Their point guard makes a cross court pass to her teammate, but that player had decided to cut to the lane. The ball hits in the vacated spot and bounces towards B's bench. There is not a player close enough to make an attempt at a save. The ball is heading OOB, bouncing directly at B's bench. A seated bench player reflexively/defensively grabs the loose ball just before it strikes her in the head.

There is an immediate whistle, and the official signals a technical against the bench player for what sounded like "interference". Under the league rules, a T is an automatic award of 2 points (they don't shoot the FT).

Is that a reasonable call, and if so, is there anything the bench player could have done to avoid the infraction?
I have one question regarding this -- If Team A throws the ball to an teamate late in the game and it goes into Team B's bench, were the teams sitting on the wrong ends of the court?
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