U mayk duh cawl

[Mark Padgett]

This almost happened in a game last night. If it had, what's the call? A1 has the ball in frontcourt. A1 passes to A2. A2 isn't looking and the ball passes her by and hits the trail official who is standing in team A's backcourt, caroms off the official and hits A2 who is still in their frontcourt. Do you have a call here?

When I say it "almost" happened, the ball hit the official (my partner, not me) and when it went back into A's frontcourt, it was caught by B1, but it just missed hitting A2.

My partner and I discussed it at the half and both agreed it would have been a violation because all four elements of that call were present.

BTW - this was an 8th grade competitive girls game with the final score 20-7. We called a grand total of one foul in the whole game! There were no 3 second, 5 second or 10 second calls. The scorer kept track of the held balls and there were 27 in the game. IOW, there were as many held balls as there were total points. Man, am I getting all the weird games. Maybe there's a message here?

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

We called a grand total of one foul in the whole game! There were no 3 second, 5 second or 10 second calls. The scorer kept track of the held balls and there were 27 in the game.

Sounds like great GM!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Sounds like great GM!

Especially since it didn't go overtime.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Especially since it didn't go overtime.

If OT was threatened, I'm sure there would have been a second foul!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If OT was threatened, I'm sure there would have been a second foul!

Too bad Padgett can't make their FT's for them...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

BTW - this was an 8th grade competitive girls game with the final score 20-7.

What kind of margins do you have in the games that are not competitive?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Man, am I getting all the weird games. Maybe there's a message here?

You have to ask yourself what the common element is.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What kind of margins do you have in the games that are not competitive?

In some of the girls rec (not competitive level) games I work, finals are typically something like 12-6, 14-8, 18-12, etc. When I train HS kids by working 3rd and 4th grade games with them, it's unusual for the total points scored to be over 30. The boys games at that same grade level usually run a little higher, totaling about 40-50 points per game.

[buckrog64]

Seems like if A2 was in the FC when the ball caromed off the official and wound up in the FC with her, then she would be okay and you'd have no violation. Where is A2? In the frontcourt. Where is the ball? FC? At least for the time-being, if I picture this correctly.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by buckrog64

Seems like if A2 was in the FC when the ball caromed off the official and wound up in the FC with her, then she would be okay and you'd have no violation. Where is A2? In the frontcourt. Where is the ball? FC? At least for the time-being, if I picture this correctly.

The four elements for having this violation are:

1) there must be team control
2) the ball must have achieved frontcourt status
3) the team in team control must be the last to touch the ball in frontcourt
4) that same team must be the first to touch after the ball has been in the backcourt

Which one of the four is missing in my example?

[buckrog64]

ball hit official, bounces directly from official to hit A2? Doesn't bounce anywhere else first. Then I think you're right, you do have a violation because it's no different if the official were standing on the sideline and ball hit him or her. The ball would be out of bounds. So the status of the ball is still BC when it hits A2. It would be a violation, but it would also be a lot of fun to explain!

Originally Posted by buckrog64

ball hit official, bounces directly from official to hit A2? Doesn't bounce anywhere else first. Then I think you're right, you do have a violation because it's no different if the official were standing on the sideline and ball hit him or her. The ball would be out of bounds. So the status of the ball is still BC when it hits A2. It would be a violation, but it would also be a lot of fun to explain!

Wow, almost speaking in tongues are we? Maybe that's the fun part of explaining this one, to speak to the coach in tongues!

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

The four elements for having this violation are:

1) there must be team control
2) the ball must have achieved frontcourt status
3) the team in team control must be the last to touch the ball in frontcourt
4) that same team must be the first to touch after the ball has been in the backcourt

Which one of the four is missing in my example?

In the Op did the ball ever achieve front court status before hitting the official in the backcourt? Could that be the missing component to this riddle.

[jdmara]

Forgive me for not being able to find the case play but isn't there a case play where A1 intentionally spins the ball, while in the frontcourt, into the backcourt and it returns to the frontcourt where A2 is standing. If my memory serves me correctly, the act is deemed a violation because A1 intentionally spun the ball. Anyone recall this caseplay?

I guess I'm having a difficult time calling the OP a violation because the ball was in frontcourt status when they touched the ball. Granted I hope this never happens Good discussion Mark

-Josh

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Forgive me for not being able to find the case play but isn't there a case play where A1 intentionally spins the ball, while in the frontcourt, into the backcourt and it returns to the frontcourt where A2 is standing. If my memory serves me correctly, the act is deemed a violation because A1 intentionally spun the ball. Anyone recall this caseplay?

I guess I'm having a difficult time calling the OP a violation because the ball was in frontcourt status when they touched the ball. Granted I hope this never happens Good discussion Mark

-Josh

Intent is irrelevant. If the ball merely touches the backcourt, it is in the backcourt....likewise for the frontcourt (assuming the dribbler exception is not relevant).

In your play, team A had control and the ball that was in FC, ball gained BC status when it bounced in the BC (ok so far), it was last touched by A1 prior to it gaining BC status (ok so far), then team A was the next team to touch the ball...anywhere...frontcourt or backcourt.....violation.

The only difference in Mark's play was that it hit the official in the BC....which is exactly the same as hitting the floor in the BC. Otherwise, the two plays are identical.