Full or 30

[JugglingReferee]

A few years ago I had worked into my game to recall where on the court the ball was when TOs were requested, and for what reason.

When coaches claim "I still have a full TO left", my P and I could reply, "you took one here, here and here for this, that, and the other thing." The look on the coaches' faces were priceless. I've lost this skill now, though, since I have cut back on how many games I do because of football taking priority.

Some people can't remember what they had for breakfast, while others have a very good memory. If you have the ability, why not use it? But only if the more important parts of your game are already in tune.

[Rusty Gilbert]

As officials, we are responsible for recognizing and awarding legitimate time out requests. The official scorer keeps up with the "how many" and, by rule, advises an official when a team has used its last timeout so that the official, by rule, can advise the head coach that the team has no timeouts remaining.

It's the same way with fouls. We call them, the scorer records them and keeps the count. When a participant uses up all they've got, the scorer tells us and then we tell the head coach and the disqualified participant.

Now, we should always be able to answer a coach's "do I have any timeouts left?" with either "yes" or "no." But the "how many are left" question is not one we need to be answering. Teams have stats people, assistant coaches, etc. who can record/check/recheck/verify these issues with the table.

And what I've noticed is that officials who give attention to keeping up with timeouts often offer the information to coaches without ever being asked!

The big problem happens when we as officials assume responsibility for an area of the game that is really someone else's responsibility. And here is where the water hits the wheel: What if you give the coach incorrect information?

It's neither rude nor unprofessional to respond to the "how many timeouts do I have left?" question with, "Coach, I'm not sure about that. You'll have to check with the scorer's table for that information."

Just my 2 cents.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I've lost this skill now. Some people can't remember what they had for breakfast.

Where are my keys?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Quare si mihi cura est.

"Que Sera Sera". Is that the right answer?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gilbert

As officials, we are responsible for recognizing and awarding legitimate time out requests. The official scorer keeps up with the "how many" and, by rule, advises an official when a team has used its last timeout so that the official, by rule, can advise the head coach that the team has no timeouts remaining. It's the same way with fouls. We call them, the scorer records them and keeps the count. When a participant uses up all they've got, the scorer tells us and then we tell the head coach and the disqualified participant. Now, we should always be able to answer a coach's "do I have any timeouts left?" with either "yes" or "no." But the "how many are left" question is not one we need to be answering. Teams have stats people, assistant coaches, etc. who can record/check/recheck/verify these issues with the table. And what I've noticed is that officials who give attention to keeping up with timeouts often offer the information to coaches without ever being asked! The big problem happens when we as officials assume responsibility for an area of the game that is really someone else's responsibility. And here is where the water hits the wheel: What if you give the coach incorrect information? It's neither rude nor unprofessional to respond to the "how many timeouts do I have left?" question with, "Coach, I'm not sure about that. You'll have to check with the scorer's table for that information."

Great post from a member with only about 100 posts. I agree with you completely. It's not our job to remember, and share, this information, especially if we share incorrect information. I do agree somewhat with previous posters that knowledge of such information would help if a scorebook error came up, but I believe that the disadvantages of remembering, and sharing, this knowledge, slightly outweighs the advantages.

There are some great officials who have a philosophy that they should be aware when a star player has picked up their fourth foul, and that this may impact a future "gray area" foul call. Sorry. I wouldn't be able to sleep that night if I used such information to "color" my later call.

My local board has been criticized by some Forum members, including me, for requiring us to keep switching an extra whistle from pocket, to pocket, to help insure that the possession arrow is pointing in the correct direction. I certainly understood the need to do this back in 1985, when we first started using the arrow, instead of jump balls, there were many arrow mistakes back then, but not now in 2008.

We as officials need to keep our eye on the scoreboard, and use our memory, to know when we've reached the seventh, or tenth, team foul, for the simple reason to avoid the dreaded correctable error. That's all I want to keep track of. I have a lot of more important things to be aware of in the game, like primary coverage areas, block/charge, advantage/disadvantage, displacement, proper administration of throwins, and free throws, etc. Maybe it's because I'm getting old, but that all my 55 year old brain can handle.

Rusty Gilbert: "Here is where the water hits the wheel"? Is this a Southern idiom? I've never heard it before. And Connecticut used to have hundreds of mills.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gilbert

"Coach, I'm not sure about that. You'll have to check with the scorer's table for that information."

Be careful. I don't believe that he's allowed to leave the coaching box to do this.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gilbert

As officials, we are responsible for recognizing and awarding legitimate time out requests. The official scorer keeps up with the "how many" and, by rule, advises an official when a team has used its last timeout so that the official, by rule, can advise the head coach that the team has no timeouts remaining.

It's the same way with fouls. We call them, the scorer records them and keeps the count. When a participant uses up all they've got, the scorer tells us and then we tell the head coach and the disqualified participant.

Now, we should always be able to answer a coach's "do I have any timeouts left?" with either "yes" or "no." But the "how many are left" question is not one we need to be answering. Teams have stats people, assistant coaches, etc. who can record/check/recheck/verify these issues with the table.

And what I've noticed is that officials who give attention to keeping up with timeouts often offer the information to coaches without ever being asked!

The big problem happens when we as officials assume responsibility for an area of the game that is really someone else's responsibility. And here is where the water hits the wheel: What if you give the coach incorrect information?

It's neither rude nor unprofessional to respond to the "how many timeouts do I have left?" question with, "Coach, I'm not sure about that. You'll have to check with the scorer's table for that information."

Just my 2 cents.

Have you ever kept the arrow in your head?

If you've ever had an incorrect arrow, how do you resolve it?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If you've ever had an incorrect arrow, how do you resolve it?

For good, or bad, after racking our brains, checking the scorebook (some scorers write down alternating possessions, others don't), and not being able to decide, we go with two, out of three (extra whistle in pocket, extra whistle in pocket, possession arrow at table). Really.

And when the coach continues to question, I simply tell him, "Sorry coach. We did the best we could. But I promise that you'll get two, out of the next three, alternating possessions."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For good, or bad, after racking our brains, checking the scorebook (some scorers write down alternating possessions, others don't), and not being able to decide, we go with two, out of three (extra whistle in pocket, extra whistle in pocket, possession arrow at table). Really.

And when the coach continues to complain, I simply tell him, "Sorry coach. We did the best we could. But I promise that you'll get two, out of the next three, alternating possessions."

I have to ask. Has this ever worked? If I was a coach, I'd view this as extremely condescending and rude; and would be pi$sed off even more. Not that I worry about making coaches angry when I make my calls, but I see no reason to add fuel to the fire when engaging them.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I have to ask. Has this ever worked? If I was a coach, I'd view this as extremely condescending and rude; and would be pi$sed off even more. Not that I worry about making coaches angry when I make my calls, but I see no reason to add fuel to the fire when engaging them.

Good point. I may have done a disservice to rookie officials. I should have added this should only be used in the right place, at the right time, at the right level, and with the right coach. I've only used this a few times, I believe only once at the high school level, always with success. Maybe I've been lucky. In all cases, the coach knew that we exhausted all possibilities to make the correct call, that the fault may have been with his own scorekeeper, that he wasn't pissed off, but was only in a "questioning mode", that it was stated in a humorous manner with a smile on my face, not a "smart alec" manner, and finally, that I had built up some good rapport with that coach over time, that is, past seasons, as well as no previous problems in this particular game.

Rookies. Don't try this at your local gym. It could be hazardous. This is only for seasoned veterans, and only under some rare circumstances. "We're what you call, 'experts'".

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Rookies. Don't try this at your local gym. It could be hazardous. This is only for seasoned veterans, and only under some rare circumstances. "We're what you call, 'experts'".

You forgot "on a closed track."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You forgot "on a closed track."

If I drove my car like I see cars being driven on all those commercials, my glove compartment would be overflowing with traffic tickets.

[Rusty Gilbert]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Have you ever kept the arrow in your head?

If you've ever had an incorrect arrow, how do you resolve it?

I don't keep the arrow in my head, but I do keep up with it using a small, flesh covered rubber band on my finger as an aid to making a quick directional declaration when a "held ball" situation develops.

We have, by rule, a visible indicator (the arrow) on the scorer's table that communicates the direction. As officials, we have responsibility to determine that the arrow is correctly set at the start of the game, and then that it is correctly changed at the appropriate times. However, it is the official scorer who is charged with keeping track of these changes (quarter/time/team).

There are case book situations that speak to incorrect administration of possession arrow throw ins.

Bottom line, when an official mistakenly allows an A-P throw-in to be completed by the wrong team, you can't "take it back and have a do-over." The team that should have had the A-P throw-in initially is still entitled to the next A-P throw-in opportunity.


A couple of other responses to responses:
When I wrote, "Coach, I'm not sure about that. You'll have to check with the scorer's table for that information," BillyMac said, "Be careful. I don't believe that he's allowed to leave the coaching box to do this."

Somebody for that team is (or should be) able to verify accurate information from the official scorer. If the head coach thinks it is incorrect, the head coach can then go to the table to request a timeout "in order to prevent or rectify" the scorer's mistake, during which time out the officials will determine whether or not there was a mistake and, if so, determine whether it can be prevented or rectified. If there was a mistake and it was prevented/rectified, then the team is not charged a timeout.


BillyMac also asked about the phrase "where the water hits the wheel." I'm not sure of its origin, but the phrase is often used to refer to the point at where the theoretical and the practical meet.
__________________

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gilbert

I don't keep the arrow in my head, but I do keep up with it using a small, flesh covered rubber band on my finger as an aid to making a quick directional declaration when a "held ball" situation develops.

Get ready for the, "Slings and arrows of outrageous" Forum members. They have been giving me the business for years for using this mechanic, but I'm only doing what my evaluators want me to do, and even if I disagree with this mechanic, "When in Rome ..."

[refnrev]

Why would you bother to keep up? That's what the table is for?