Full or 30

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What good does this do?

It makes the officials look good in the area of game management and helps avoid any unnecessary problems by having to communicate with an unhappy coach. See posts #1 and #8.

Also helps with the referee's "definite knowledge" should there be a bookkeeping mistake regarding the number of time-outs used.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It makes the officials look good in the area of game management and helps avoid any unnecessary problems by having to communicate with an unhappy coach. See posts #1 and #8.

Also helps with the referee's "definite knowledge" should there be a bookkeeping mistake regarding the number of time-outs used.

If a coach asks for a 30 and has only a full, you give him the full. It's a
non-issue. If there is a bookkeeping mistake, exactly how do you proceed with this definite knowledge?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If a coach asks for a 30 and has only a full, you give him the full. It's a non-issue.

No, unless I am aware that he is out of 30s, I will signal for a 30, tell my partners that it is a 30, then head to the table and report a 30. When I learn that he is out of 30s, I now have to tell the coach of the non-calling team, who likely watched me report or perhaps even asked me on my way to the table what type of TO was taken and then dutifully kept his team standing, that it is a full and his team can sit down. Then I need to inform the coach of the calling team that he has to take a full because he already used his 30s, and finally I have to tell my partners who are standing in the wrong locations to move. It is just better to know in advance and not have to go through all of this and look like a fool.

Originally Posted by just another ref

If there is a bookkeeping mistake, exactly how do you proceed with this definite knowledge?

Example A:
Table has each team recorded as using one 30 and two fulls. Coach B disagrees. I'm the R. My parters are Jack and Bob. I ask Jack how many 30s Team B has taken. He says zero. I ask Bob how many 30s Team A has taken. He says both of them. I now know the problem. The bookkeeper wrote down one of the 30s on the wrong side. I fix it and avoid having to write a report to the state office for all of the nastiness that would have occurred had the visiting team gotten screwed out of a time-out.

[26 Year Gap]

In the 4th qtr, when a time out is being used, either my partner or I will check on time-outs remaining at the table and inform each other and after the 2nd horn and before the ball is put in play, we will advise the coaches. We don't do this for EVERY time out in the 4th qtr...usually just once.

If we go into OT, I have my partner inform the coaches they have one additional TO, because it wasn't MY fault.

[JugglingReferee]

A few years ago I had worked into my game to recall where on the court the ball was when TOs were requested, and for what reason.

When coaches claim "I still have a full TO left", my P and I could reply, "you took one here, here and here for this, that, and the other thing." The look on the coaches' faces were priceless. I've lost this skill now, though, since I have cut back on how many games I do because of football taking priority.

Some people can't remember what they had for breakfast, while others have a very good memory. If you have the ability, why not use it? But only if the more important parts of your game are already in tune.

[Rusty Gilbert]

As officials, we are responsible for recognizing and awarding legitimate time out requests. The official scorer keeps up with the "how many" and, by rule, advises an official when a team has used its last timeout so that the official, by rule, can advise the head coach that the team has no timeouts remaining.

It's the same way with fouls. We call them, the scorer records them and keeps the count. When a participant uses up all they've got, the scorer tells us and then we tell the head coach and the disqualified participant.

Now, we should always be able to answer a coach's "do I have any timeouts left?" with either "yes" or "no." But the "how many are left" question is not one we need to be answering. Teams have stats people, assistant coaches, etc. who can record/check/recheck/verify these issues with the table.

And what I've noticed is that officials who give attention to keeping up with timeouts often offer the information to coaches without ever being asked!

The big problem happens when we as officials assume responsibility for an area of the game that is really someone else's responsibility. And here is where the water hits the wheel: What if you give the coach incorrect information?

It's neither rude nor unprofessional to respond to the "how many timeouts do I have left?" question with, "Coach, I'm not sure about that. You'll have to check with the scorer's table for that information."

Just my 2 cents.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gilbert

As officials, we are responsible for recognizing and awarding legitimate time out requests. The official scorer keeps up with the "how many" and, by rule, advises an official when a team has used its last timeout so that the official, by rule, can advise the head coach that the team has no timeouts remaining. It's the same way with fouls. We call them, the scorer records them and keeps the count. When a participant uses up all they've got, the scorer tells us and then we tell the head coach and the disqualified participant. Now, we should always be able to answer a coach's "do I have any timeouts left?" with either "yes" or "no." But the "how many are left" question is not one we need to be answering. Teams have stats people, assistant coaches, etc. who can record/check/recheck/verify these issues with the table. And what I've noticed is that officials who give attention to keeping up with timeouts often offer the information to coaches without ever being asked! The big problem happens when we as officials assume responsibility for an area of the game that is really someone else's responsibility. And here is where the water hits the wheel: What if you give the coach incorrect information? It's neither rude nor unprofessional to respond to the "how many timeouts do I have left?" question with, "Coach, I'm not sure about that. You'll have to check with the scorer's table for that information."

Great post from a member with only about 100 posts. I agree with you completely. It's not our job to remember, and share, this information, especially if we share incorrect information. I do agree somewhat with previous posters that knowledge of such information would help if a scorebook error came up, but I believe that the disadvantages of remembering, and sharing, this knowledge, slightly outweighs the advantages.

There are some great officials who have a philosophy that they should be aware when a star player has picked up their fourth foul, and that this may impact a future "gray area" foul call. Sorry. I wouldn't be able to sleep that night if I used such information to "color" my later call.

My local board has been criticized by some Forum members, including me, for requiring us to keep switching an extra whistle from pocket, to pocket, to help insure that the possession arrow is pointing in the correct direction. I certainly understood the need to do this back in 1985, when we first started using the arrow, instead of jump balls, there were many arrow mistakes back then, but not now in 2008.

We as officials need to keep our eye on the scoreboard, and use our memory, to know when we've reached the seventh, or tenth, team foul, for the simple reason to avoid the dreaded correctable error. That's all I want to keep track of. I have a lot of more important things to be aware of in the game, like primary coverage areas, block/charge, advantage/disadvantage, displacement, proper administration of throwins, and free throws, etc. Maybe it's because I'm getting old, but that all my 55 year old brain can handle.

Rusty Gilbert: "Here is where the water hits the wheel"? Is this a Southern idiom? I've never heard it before. And Connecticut used to have hundreds of mills.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gilbert

"Coach, I'm not sure about that. You'll have to check with the scorer's table for that information."

Be careful. I don't believe that he's allowed to leave the coaching box to do this.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gilbert

As officials, we are responsible for recognizing and awarding legitimate time out requests. The official scorer keeps up with the "how many" and, by rule, advises an official when a team has used its last timeout so that the official, by rule, can advise the head coach that the team has no timeouts remaining.

It's the same way with fouls. We call them, the scorer records them and keeps the count. When a participant uses up all they've got, the scorer tells us and then we tell the head coach and the disqualified participant.

Now, we should always be able to answer a coach's "do I have any timeouts left?" with either "yes" or "no." But the "how many are left" question is not one we need to be answering. Teams have stats people, assistant coaches, etc. who can record/check/recheck/verify these issues with the table.

And what I've noticed is that officials who give attention to keeping up with timeouts often offer the information to coaches without ever being asked!

The big problem happens when we as officials assume responsibility for an area of the game that is really someone else's responsibility. And here is where the water hits the wheel: What if you give the coach incorrect information?

It's neither rude nor unprofessional to respond to the "how many timeouts do I have left?" question with, "Coach, I'm not sure about that. You'll have to check with the scorer's table for that information."

Just my 2 cents.

Have you ever kept the arrow in your head?

If you've ever had an incorrect arrow, how do you resolve it?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I've lost this skill now. Some people can't remember what they had for breakfast.

Where are my keys?