lead mirror the trail's made three signal?

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Yesterday we had our annual chapter clinic, which is really just an extended chapter meeting, with our interpreter going through a whole game (where to go and what to do pregame, jump ball, FTs, subs, timeouts, et cetera) and there was one thing he said that I don't think is right. Somebody asked him because we thought he had it backwards but he stood by what he said. He said that in two-person, when the trail signals a made three in their primary, the lead should mirror the signal. Yes or no?

I guess it's a check your local listings thing, but not true around here. In 2 person the T only mirrors L successful signal.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

Yesterday we had our annual chapter clinic, which is really just an extended chapter meeting, with our interpreter going through a whole game (where to go and what to do pregame, jump ball, FTs, subs, timeouts, et cetera) and there was one thing he said that I don't think is right. Somebody asked him because we thought he had it backwards but he stood by what he said. He said that in two-person, when the trail signals a made three in their primary, the lead should mirror the signal. Yes or no?

Here's my understanding:

The T's primary on 3-point attempts is from the endline on his half of the court, up to the top of the 3-point line, and back down to the free-throw line extended on the opposite side of the court. The L's primary on 3-point attempts is from the endline on his half of the court, up to the free-throw line extended on his side of the court.

If a 3PA originates from your primary, you should signal the attempt.

If a 3PA attempt is successful, and you signalled the attempt, you should also signal the good.

The T should always signal the successful 3PA.
- This means that the T will mirror the L, but the L will never mirror the T.
- The T mirrors the L so that the "good" signal so that the signal is clearly visible to the scorekeeper's table.

I believe that your interpretor has erred.

[mbyron]

Tough spot: by the book, he's wrong. Since he's your local interpreter, he's right.

Find out what all the varsity folks in your area are doing, and do that. When you get to be interpreter, fix it.

[Adam]

How old is your interpreter?

[PIAA REF]

I work in pa as well and this was changed about 4 years ago at least. Trail official will mirror lead but lead will not mirror trail in 2 man. I don't have it with me but this is in the officials manual. I know years ago they use to both mirror each other on a successful try. The reasoning now is Lead has the responsibility of starting a 5-second count so why worry about a mirror signal.

[mcdanrd]

PIAA ref has it right. According to the 2007-2009 Officials Manual 2.3.4B.5 "When the trail official signals a successful three-point attempt, the lead official SHALL NOT mirror the signal.

2.3.4B.6 says "When the lead offical signals a successful 3-point attempt the trail official SHALL mirror the signal.

I was told at state-wide association camp that the trail should mirror the 3-point attempt signal of the lead and at that point the lead should drop his/her attempt signal and the trail only will signal successful three-point attempt. The theory being that the lead will follow the action under the basket and the trail, with a wider viewing area, will be responsible for the basket.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by mcdanrd

PIAA ref has it right. According to the 2007-2009 Officials Manual 2.3.4B.5 "When the trail official signals a successful three-point attempt, the lead official SHALL NOT mirror the signal.

2.3.4B.6 says "When the lead offical signals a successful 3-point attempt the trail official SHALL mirror the signal.

I was told at state-wide association camp that the trail should mirror the 3-point attempt signal of the lead and at that point the lead should drop his/her attempt signal and the trail only will signal successful three-point attempt. The theory being that the lead will follow the action under the basket and the trail, with a wider viewing area, will be responsible for the basket.

What I don't like about the L dropping is that this mechanic confuses the issue if the L signalled prematurely. If the L drops because the toe was on the line at the last second, then the T is signalling a 3PA when it isn't.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

What I don't like about the L dropping is that this mechanic confuses the issue if the L signalled prematurely. If the L drops because the toe was on the line at the last second, then the T is signalling a 3PA when it isn't.

Great point JugglingReferee! But not only that, doesn't the attempt signal also mean that you have that airborne shooter up & down?
So if the L drops signal/coverage on the shot in their corner & referees players in the paint, the T is supposed to look through all the bodies & referee that play

IMO it's easier for the T to see that the L has it covered & should help out on rebounding coverage.

[Back In The Saddle]

I've never been taught that marking the 3PA also assigns ownership of the shooter to that official. In fact, I've only heard that association stated here in the past few months. Logically they do go together, but to assign a cause and effect relationship could lead to what you just suggested. It may be a good rule of thumb, but it's not a good rule IMHO. Whether the lead drops the mark or not, if the shot is from the lead's area, the lead has the shooter.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

What I don't like about the L dropping is that this mechanic confuses the issue if the L signalled prematurely. If the L drops because the toe was on the line at the last second, then the T is signalling a 3PA when it isn't.

The L should raise the arm only when sure that it's a 3 point attempt, not before.

In Fiba the mechanics is just the one mentioned by mcdanrd.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

The L should raise the arm only when sure that it's a 3 point attempt, not before.

In Fiba the mechanics is just the one mentioned by mcdanrd.

You're right, the L should only raise his arm on the attempt. But we make mistakes and Murphy will pop his head up now and again.

FIBA's mechanics, I believe, don't consider that newbies are officiating their events. There are many leagues around the world where first or second year officials are working FIBA rules, and make the mistake of the premature signal. With FIBA's L "drop" mechanic, there will be a higher number of mistakes than with Fed's "no drop" mechanic.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

You're right, the L should only raise his arm on the attempt. But we make mistakes and Murphy will pop his head up now and again.

FIBA's mechanics, I believe, don't consider that newbies are officiating their events. There are many leagues around the world where first or second year officials are working FIBA rules, and make the mistake of the premature signal. With FIBA's L "drop" mechanic, there will be a higher number of mistakes than with Fed's "no drop" mechanic.

I don't think so. I've seen very few premature (i.e., wrong) signals of this kind; it's more frequent that an official signals on a fake, which is only an minor annoyance.

Ciao

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

I don't think so. I've seen very few premature (i.e., wrong) signals of this kind; it's more frequent that an official signals on a fake, which is only an minor annoyance.

Ciao

Sorry - I just want to be clear. "I don't think so" to what statement?

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Sorry - I just want to be clear. "I don't think so" to what statement?

I don't think that there will be a higher number of mistakes. Raise the arm when the ball has left the shooter's hands. I know that the try begins before that moment, but only then we know precisely if it's a real three point attempt.

It could be a fake, for example. Raising the arm in this case is harmless, of course, but it's not nice to see.

Ciao