count the basket or not

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Which part? Declaring the quarter over, or wiping the basket?
That's why I just end it now, then there's no official disagreeing with me for wiping the basket.

The part about you deciding to correct an obvious timing mistake.

The rule specifies that is the job of the REFEREE.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The part about you deciding to correct an obvious timing mistake.

The rule specifies that is the job of the REFEREE.

Doh! I think we've had this discussion before.

I didn't read the last half of 2-5-5.

FWIW, I wasn't the R, but the R was cool with it; which I suppose amounts to tacit approval.

[Nevadaref]

It's also in 5-10-1 and 5-10-2.

FWIW, I would handle the action in the same manner as you. I would start a visible count and when I reach what should be the end of the quarter--sound the whistle.

The difference would be that I would then go straight to the R and tell him that the clock didn't start so I counted it out and that he needs to go over to the table, have a brief word about what just happened, and declare the quarter over.

[OHBBREF]

Both Snaqs and Nevada have Valid points
We always have the official responsible for the clock count with 5 seconds or less. The all officials are responsible to make sure the clock starts properly on all plays.
and as Nevada says this play looks much better if you do not have to take the points off the board.

This is were the game managment part of officiating comes in if you are constantly aware of clock, shot clock, and score. you can make these adjustments or they are not surprises when they pop up and you can dela with them w/o major malfunctions occuring.

In a situation such as this a reation from the official responsible for the last second shot before the buzzer would be ideal. The book calls for definate knowledge and if you react after the buzzer it is a harder sell than if one of you is waving of time when it should happen not after a 2 minute conference with no monitor to check.

[jdmara]

Great discussion all. I believe it must be noted that although it's not defined (that I know of) by rule/manual when the clock is under 5 seconds, the "definitive" count should be done visually.

In one of the camps I have been, the clinician noted a instance of this happening in a college game. Needless to say, he didn't have a visual count and the supervisor of officials was not to thrilled about using an "invisible count" as definitive information. He referenced that the team went back looked at the tape, made their determination of how much time should have came off the clock before the shot, then forwarded it to the league. The supervisor told him that it would have been much more defensible if he would have just had a visual count (even if it was wrong). Just thought I would share the story

-Josh

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Great discussion all. I believe it must be noted that although it's not defined (that I know of) by rule/manual when the clock is under 5 seconds, the "definitive" count should be done visually.

I have never read about or been told - heard anyone told - or heard anyone talk about a visual count durring any NCAA camp or meeting or pregame -with less than five seconds on a clock.

there is a signal you can use for "Lock down" late in a game,
but a visual count would be a disaster. for many reasons, at the upper levels there is the monitor to use in most games for this purpose, nobody counts as the same pace. Do the drill with your eyes closed most people count to 10 in about 6 seconds. if the clock shows four and they see you count to five to be safe and you count the shot what would happen?

there are two visual there visual counts that come to mind for for an official:
Men 10 seconds backcourt
both five seconds Inbound
both five seconds closely guarded Men dribbline Men and women held ball M 6ft w 3ft

[irp]

Count to 5 and kill the game with a whistle - easier to explain that clock not started rather than cancel a basket on a 'after whistle' play.

I would always give an extra second on a display that does not display 0.1 seconds; in fact I would probably give it anyway just to make sure , sometimes I may count a little quick...

When I was [more of] a newbie, an experienced guy said that we are human and make mistakes and so do the table officials on occasion - we are a team and have to work together; to this end he always counted anything less than 8' in a quarter just to be safe, also useful if equipment is a little 'interesting' for the home team.

It is only the same as a count for the 8 seconds and then having the display show '20' after you blow the whistle, the display is to help but the referee's are responsible and carry the can if it is wrong.

My 2 pence worth anyway (or is that 3 cents now?)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the clock doesn't show 1/10s of seconds, and indicates 0:04, then there is AT LEAST 4 seconds left (could be up to 4.9). So, you should count to 5.

Not necessarily. "4" on the clock could be 4.0-4.9 or it could be 3.1-4.0. Some round up, some round down.

If the horn immediately sounds when the clock switches to 0 (which I find more common), it will be the latter...3.1-4.0.

[cdoug]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not necessarily. "4" on the clock could be 4.0-4.9 or it could be 3.1-4.0. Some round up, some round down.

If the horn immediately sounds when the clock switches to 0 (which I find more common), it will be the latter...3.1-4.0.

Either way I'd probably count an extra second just in case I accidentally counted too fast.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not necessarily. "4" on the clock could be 4.0-4.9 or it could be 3.1-4.0. Some round up, some round down.

If the horn immediately sounds when the clock switches to 0 (which I find more common), it will be the latter...3.1-4.0.

How can the clock be from 3-4.9? thats a screwy clock

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not necessarily. "4" on the clock could be 4.0-4.9 or it could be 3.1-4.0. Some round up, some round down.

If the horn immediately sounds when the clock switches to 0 (which I find more common), it will be the latter...3.1-4.0.

Which clocks?

I called NEVCO and asked about their clock operation. NEVCO clocks are popular in my area and work in the way that bob j describes, according to the engineer that I spoke to.

Either way, you tell can how the game clock operates by observing the change, or lack or change, immeidately after you switch the running of the clock to "on".

If the clock changes to 7:59 immediately, then there is really 7:59.9, 7:59.8, 7:59.7, 7:59.6 and so on, until the real time hits 7:58.9, at which point the clock will then read 7:58.

If the clock does not change to 7:59 immediately, then it will read 8:00 until the actual time is 7:59.0 at which time it will change to 7:59.

Surely (yes, Padgett, I am calling you Shirley), any official can tell the difference between 0.1s and 1.0s when it comes to the clock changing from 8:00 to 7:59.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Surely. Yes, Padgett, I am calling you Shirley.

Good one. One of my favorite movie quotes.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Which clocks?

I have no idea...but the topic (different implementations of clocks) has been discussed here on more than one occassion.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I called NEVCO and asked about their clock operation. NEVCO clocks are popular in my area and work in the way that bob j describes, according to the engineer that I spoke to.

I'm sure they do, but they may not be representative of all or even most clocks.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Either way, you tell can how the game clock operates by observing the change, or lack or change, immeidately after you switch the running of the clock to "on".

If the clock changes to 7:59 immediately, then there is really 7:59.9, 7:59.8, 7:59.7, 7:59.6 and so on, until the real time hits 7:58.9, at which point the clock will then read 7:58.

If the clock does not change to 7:59 immediately, then it will read 8:00 until the actual time is 7:59.0 at which time it will change to 7:59.

That method will certainly work....just as well as watching the pregame clock count down to 0 and seeing if the horn sounds simultaneous with the appearance of 0. Your method, however, depends on knowing when the scorer flipped the switch...unless you're going to go over to the clock to test it yourself.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Surely (yes, Padgett, I am calling you Shirley), any official can tell the difference between 0.1s and 1.0s when it comes to the clock changing from 8:00 to 7:59.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That method will certainly work....just as well as watching the pregame clock count down to 0 and seeing if the horn sounds simultaneous with the appearance of 0. Your method, however, depends on knowing when the scorer flipped the switch...unless you're going to go over to the clock to test it yourself.

My method also affords me of doing to test anytime pre-game and I can start on any value immediately after a reset, without the need for waiting for someone else's timeline, until zeroes to appear and the horn to unnecessarily sound.

I know you're a curious guy, and what else is there to do when you're at a game 30-minutes prior to tip-off? You should see the look on coaches' faces when they try to pull a fast on me and I rebuke them because I know stuff. It's pretty funny.

I make it a point to know many things - including where the closest restrooms are at every venue!