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-   -   Backcourt or not? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/49867-backcourt-not.html)

slow whistle Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:06am
Backcourt or not?
 
I think I remember reading about this situation in the past on this board, but actually had it happen last night. I am trail, A1 bringing the ball up from BC and for whatever reason decides to start going East/West at the point where he is straddling the HC line, ball being dribbled in the FC. B1 reaches in and bats the ball just a foot or so away from A1. A1 then touches the ball with his back foot still in the backcourt. I have a violation since I have 1) team control and 2) a ball in the frontcourt once the ball was batted away 3) A1 first to touch the ball while in the BC - correct? I believe I was, but this is really a bang-bang type of play. It is beyond me why players play with fire along the HC line makes it a difficult situation to officiate. Any tips on what to focus on here to make this play "slow down"? You're watching for contact on the dribbler, ensuring that he maintains his dribble, watching to see when FC status is established...just a lot going on here..

Raymond Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:09am
Was the ball batted into the FC or the BC?

slow whistle Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 550592)
Was the ball batted into the FC or the BC?
The ball was batted in the FC, but when A1 resumed control of it he still had his back foot in the BC.

CoachP Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 550591)
I think I remember reading about this situation in the past on this board, but actually had it happen last night. I am trail, A1 bringing the ball up from BC and for whatever reason decides to start going East/West at the point where he is straddling the HC line, ball being dribbled in the FC. B1 reaches in and bats the ball just a foot or so away from A1. A1 then touches the ball with his back foot still in the backcourt. I have a violation since I have 1) team control and 2) a ball in the frontcourt once the ball was batted away 3) A1 first to touch the ball while in the BC - correct? I believe I was, but this is really a bang-bang type of play. It is beyond me why players play with fire along the HC line makes it a difficult situation to officiate. Any tips on what to focus on here to make this play "slow down"? You're watching for contact on the dribbler, ensuring that he maintains his dribble, watching to see when FC status is established...just a lot going on here..
You mean other than the reaching foul.......??;)

Hmmm...I would stab at it as a BC violation if he simply picked it up. His dribble ended on the bat, therefore ending the 3 point rule.

slow whistle Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachP (Post 550596)
You mean other than the reaching foul.......??;)

Hmmm...I would stab at it as a BC violation if he simply picked it up. His dribble ended on the bat, therefore ending the 3 point rule.

Yes the reaching foul that I missed of course!:D He did not pick it up, he essentially re-established a dribble, but I believe the result is the same...

CoachP Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 550598)
Yes the reaching foul that I missed of course!:D He did not pick it up, he essentially re-established a dribble, but I believe the result is the same...

I'm thinking out loud here.
  • The ball does not have FC status as long as A1 is dribbling/straddling along the division line.
  • The dribble ends when B1 bats the ball. Therefore the FC/BC dribble restrictions above are now gone.
  • Ball is now in FC per the bat, A1 is still straddling division line, team control is still with team A, therefore A1 has BC status.
  • A1 touches, pickups, dribbles, doesn't matter...violation.
Did I get that???

slow whistle Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachP (Post 550606)
I'm thinking out loud here.
  • The ball does not have FC status as long as A1 is dribbling/straddling along the division line.
  • The dribble ends when B1 bats the ball. Therefore the FC/BC dribble restrictions above are now gone.
  • Ball is now in FC per the bat, A1 is still straddling division line, team control is still with team A, therefore A1 has BC status.
  • A1 touches, pickups, dribbles, doesn't matter...violation.
Did I get that???

My thought process exactly...like I said though a lot to process in that situation, and one that you rarely get to practice...

Camron Rust Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachP (Post 550606)
I'm thinking out loud here.
  • The ball does not have FC status as long as A1 is dribbling/straddling along the division line.
  • The dribble ends when B1 bats the ball. Therefore the FC/BC dribble restrictions above are now gone.
  • Ball is now in FC per the bat, A1 is still straddling division line, team control is still with team A, therefore A1 has BC status.
  • A1 touches, pickups, dribbles, doesn't matter...violation.
Did I get that???
No. No violation.

Lets break down the rule...
Rule 9-1...A player shall not be the first to thouch the ball
Check. They were first.
after it has been in team control in the frontcourt,
Check. Team A had team control and the ball gained FC status.
if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.
Nope.

Who was the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt BEFORE it went to the backcourt? B1. Therefore, no violation.

CoachP Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 550626)
No. No violation.

Lets break down the rule...
Rule 9-1...A player shall not be the first to thouch the ball
Check. They were first.
after it has been in team control in the frontcourt,
Check. Team A had team control and the ball gained FC status.
if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.
Nope.

Who was the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt BEFORE it went to the backcourt? B1. Therefore, no violation.
Uh, I thought Slow Whistle said it did not go INTO the Backcourt?

slow whistle Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 550626)
No. No violation.

Lets break down the rule...
Rule 9-1...A player shall not be the first to thouch the ball
Check. They were first.
after it has been in team control in the frontcourt,
Check. Team A had team control and the ball gained FC status.
if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.
Nope.

Who was the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt BEFORE it went to the backcourt? B1. Therefore, no violation.
But wouldn't this fall under the interp from last year where if A1 is standing in the BC, ball has been in A's control in the FC, then B1 bats it to the backcourt and A1 catches it before it hits the ground, then you have BC on A? Same situation isn't it? B is the last t touch it, but A gave the ball BC status?

just another ref Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 550631)
But wouldn't this fall under the interp from last year where if A1 is standing in the BC, ball has been in A's control in the FC, then B1 bats it to the backcourt and A1 catches it before it hits the ground, then you have BC on A? Same situation isn't it? B is the last t touch it, but A gave the ball BC status?
It would be pretty much the same, but that interp was declared to be officially bogus, here, if nowhere else. Was that officially resolved for the good of the rest of the world, somebody?

slow whistle Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 550654)
It would be pretty much the same, but that interp was declared to be officially bogus, here, if nowhere else. Was that officially resolved for the good of the rest of the world, somebody?
I do remember the scorn heaped on that interp in this forum, but don't recall it ever being rescinded officially?

OHBBREF Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:33pm
disagree with you Cameron
 
the way the play is described - since the ball was batted into the front court it is now in the front court and the dribbler is in contact with the backcourt when he picks up the ball - tough call to make but I think you have to.

Adam Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 550657)
I do remember the scorn heaped on that interp in this forum, but don't recall it ever being rescinded officially?
I know it's been rescinded in my book. I won't be calling that violation any time soon.

bob jenkins Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 550657)
I do remember the scorn heaped on that interp in this forum, but don't recall it ever being rescinded officially?
I don't think it made it to this year's case book.

So, it raises the old (unresolved) question: Is an interp that doesn't make it to the case book still valid? Are cases that are removed without comment still valid?


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