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slow whistle Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:06am
Backcourt or not?
 
I think I remember reading about this situation in the past on this board, but actually had it happen last night. I am trail, A1 bringing the ball up from BC and for whatever reason decides to start going East/West at the point where he is straddling the HC line, ball being dribbled in the FC. B1 reaches in and bats the ball just a foot or so away from A1. A1 then touches the ball with his back foot still in the backcourt. I have a violation since I have 1) team control and 2) a ball in the frontcourt once the ball was batted away 3) A1 first to touch the ball while in the BC - correct? I believe I was, but this is really a bang-bang type of play. It is beyond me why players play with fire along the HC line makes it a difficult situation to officiate. Any tips on what to focus on here to make this play "slow down"? You're watching for contact on the dribbler, ensuring that he maintains his dribble, watching to see when FC status is established...just a lot going on here..

Raymond Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:09am
Was the ball batted into the FC or the BC?

slow whistle Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 550592)
Was the ball batted into the FC or the BC?
The ball was batted in the FC, but when A1 resumed control of it he still had his back foot in the BC.

CoachP Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 550591)
I think I remember reading about this situation in the past on this board, but actually had it happen last night. I am trail, A1 bringing the ball up from BC and for whatever reason decides to start going East/West at the point where he is straddling the HC line, ball being dribbled in the FC. B1 reaches in and bats the ball just a foot or so away from A1. A1 then touches the ball with his back foot still in the backcourt. I have a violation since I have 1) team control and 2) a ball in the frontcourt once the ball was batted away 3) A1 first to touch the ball while in the BC - correct? I believe I was, but this is really a bang-bang type of play. It is beyond me why players play with fire along the HC line makes it a difficult situation to officiate. Any tips on what to focus on here to make this play "slow down"? You're watching for contact on the dribbler, ensuring that he maintains his dribble, watching to see when FC status is established...just a lot going on here..
You mean other than the reaching foul.......??;)

Hmmm...I would stab at it as a BC violation if he simply picked it up. His dribble ended on the bat, therefore ending the 3 point rule.

slow whistle Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachP (Post 550596)
You mean other than the reaching foul.......??;)

Hmmm...I would stab at it as a BC violation if he simply picked it up. His dribble ended on the bat, therefore ending the 3 point rule.

Yes the reaching foul that I missed of course!:D He did not pick it up, he essentially re-established a dribble, but I believe the result is the same...

CoachP Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 550598)
Yes the reaching foul that I missed of course!:D He did not pick it up, he essentially re-established a dribble, but I believe the result is the same...

I'm thinking out loud here.
  • The ball does not have FC status as long as A1 is dribbling/straddling along the division line.
  • The dribble ends when B1 bats the ball. Therefore the FC/BC dribble restrictions above are now gone.
  • Ball is now in FC per the bat, A1 is still straddling division line, team control is still with team A, therefore A1 has BC status.
  • A1 touches, pickups, dribbles, doesn't matter...violation.
Did I get that???

slow whistle Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachP (Post 550606)
I'm thinking out loud here.
  • The ball does not have FC status as long as A1 is dribbling/straddling along the division line.
  • The dribble ends when B1 bats the ball. Therefore the FC/BC dribble restrictions above are now gone.
  • Ball is now in FC per the bat, A1 is still straddling division line, team control is still with team A, therefore A1 has BC status.
  • A1 touches, pickups, dribbles, doesn't matter...violation.
Did I get that???

My thought process exactly...like I said though a lot to process in that situation, and one that you rarely get to practice...

Camron Rust Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachP (Post 550606)
I'm thinking out loud here.
  • The ball does not have FC status as long as A1 is dribbling/straddling along the division line.
  • The dribble ends when B1 bats the ball. Therefore the FC/BC dribble restrictions above are now gone.
  • Ball is now in FC per the bat, A1 is still straddling division line, team control is still with team A, therefore A1 has BC status.
  • A1 touches, pickups, dribbles, doesn't matter...violation.
Did I get that???
No. No violation.

Lets break down the rule...
Rule 9-1...A player shall not be the first to thouch the ball
Check. They were first.
after it has been in team control in the frontcourt,
Check. Team A had team control and the ball gained FC status.
if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.
Nope.

Who was the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt BEFORE it went to the backcourt? B1. Therefore, no violation.

CoachP Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 550626)
No. No violation.

Lets break down the rule...
Rule 9-1...A player shall not be the first to thouch the ball
Check. They were first.
after it has been in team control in the frontcourt,
Check. Team A had team control and the ball gained FC status.
if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.
Nope.

Who was the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt BEFORE it went to the backcourt? B1. Therefore, no violation.
Uh, I thought Slow Whistle said it did not go INTO the Backcourt?

slow whistle Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 550626)
No. No violation.

Lets break down the rule...
Rule 9-1...A player shall not be the first to thouch the ball
Check. They were first.
after it has been in team control in the frontcourt,
Check. Team A had team control and the ball gained FC status.
if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.
Nope.

Who was the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt BEFORE it went to the backcourt? B1. Therefore, no violation.
But wouldn't this fall under the interp from last year where if A1 is standing in the BC, ball has been in A's control in the FC, then B1 bats it to the backcourt and A1 catches it before it hits the ground, then you have BC on A? Same situation isn't it? B is the last t touch it, but A gave the ball BC status?

just another ref Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 550631)
But wouldn't this fall under the interp from last year where if A1 is standing in the BC, ball has been in A's control in the FC, then B1 bats it to the backcourt and A1 catches it before it hits the ground, then you have BC on A? Same situation isn't it? B is the last t touch it, but A gave the ball BC status?
It would be pretty much the same, but that interp was declared to be officially bogus, here, if nowhere else. Was that officially resolved for the good of the rest of the world, somebody?

slow whistle Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 550654)
It would be pretty much the same, but that interp was declared to be officially bogus, here, if nowhere else. Was that officially resolved for the good of the rest of the world, somebody?
I do remember the scorn heaped on that interp in this forum, but don't recall it ever being rescinded officially?

OHBBREF Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:33pm
disagree with you Cameron
 
the way the play is described - since the ball was batted into the front court it is now in the front court and the dribbler is in contact with the backcourt when he picks up the ball - tough call to make but I think you have to.

Adam Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 550657)
I do remember the scorn heaped on that interp in this forum, but don't recall it ever being rescinded officially?
I know it's been rescinded in my book. I won't be calling that violation any time soon.

bob jenkins Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 550657)
I do remember the scorn heaped on that interp in this forum, but don't recall it ever being rescinded officially?
I don't think it made it to this year's case book.

So, it raises the old (unresolved) question: Is an interp that doesn't make it to the case book still valid? Are cases that are removed without comment still valid?

Spence Fri Nov 14, 2008 03:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 550591)
I think I remember reading about this situation in the past on this board, but actually had it happen last night. I am trail, A1 bringing the ball up from BC and for whatever reason decides to start going East/West at the point where he is straddling the HC line, ball being dribbled in the FC. B1 reaches in and bats the ball just a foot or so away from A1. A1 then touches the ball with his back foot still in the backcourt. I have a violation since I have 1) team control and 2) a ball in the frontcourt once the ball was batted away 3) A1 first to touch the ball while in the BC - correct? I believe I was, but this is really a bang-bang type of play. It is beyond me why players play with fire along the HC line makes it a difficult situation to officiate. Any tips on what to focus on here to make this play "slow down"? You're watching for contact on the dribbler, ensuring that he maintains his dribble, watching to see when FC status is established...just a lot going on here..

For clarification, when you say "straddling the HC line, ball being dribbled in teh FC" where are the feet located?

slow whistle Fri Nov 14, 2008 03:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 550700)
For clarification, when you say "straddling the HC line, ball being dribbled in teh FC" where are the feet located?
One foot in FC, one foot in BC.

Spence Fri Nov 14, 2008 03:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 550703)
One foot in FC, one foot in BC.
So how would he have gained FC status?

Adam Fri Nov 14, 2008 03:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 550704)
So how would he have gained FC status?
He didn't. The ball did when it was slapped by B1.

Spence Fri Nov 14, 2008 03:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 550707)
He didn't. The ball did when it was slapped by B1.
Gotcha. So there was no FC status until the ball was touched by B1 who was in the FC.?

Adam Fri Nov 14, 2008 03:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 550713)
Gotcha. So there was no FC status until the ball was touched by B1 who was in the FC.?
Exactly.

Now, the rule says A has to be the first to touch the ball "after" it regains BC status. The case play seems to treat A1 retouching the ball as both giving it BC status and touching it "after." Most here disagree that he can do both simultaneously.

The Fed case ruling would be different if the ball bounced in the BC before A1 touches it. Many here think this is stupid.

Spence Fri Nov 14, 2008 03:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 550713)
Gotcha. So there was no FC status until the ball was touched by B1 who was in the FC.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 550714)
Exactly.

Now, the rule says A has to be the first to touch the ball "after" it regains BC status. The case play seems to treat A1 retouching the ball as both giving it BC status and touching it "after." Most here disagree that he can do both simultaneously.

The Fed case ruling would be different if the ball bounced in the BC before A1 touches it. Many here think this is stupid.
So the following would also be a violation:

A1 is holding the ball with one foot touching BC/one foot in the frontcourt and is being closely guarded by B1 who has both feet on FC. B1 slaps the ball off of the leg of A1 and the ball goes to the BC where A1 is the first to touch it. Violation?

Raymond Fri Nov 14, 2008 03:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 550716)
So the following would also be a violation:

A1 is holding the ball with one foot touching BC/one foot in the frontcourt and is being closely guarded by B1 who has both feet on FC. B1 slaps the ball off of the leg of A1 and the ball goes to the BC where A1 is the first to touch it. Violation?
No. Ball never had FC status.

Spence Fri Nov 14, 2008 03:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 550717)
No. Ball never had FC status.
Bear with this rookie.

In the OP, we have an offensive player dribbling the ball at the center line but does not have the ball and both feet in the FC. However, the defender is in the FC and he touches the ball which, if I'm understanding correctly, gave the ball FC status. Correct? The ball then is last touched by the offensive player who is the first to touch it in the BC, thus, a violation.

If I am correct on my understanding, how is that different from the scenario I presented? The ball did not have FC status since a foot was still in the BC.

What am I not following?

Spence Fri Nov 14, 2008 03:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 550720)
Bear with this rookie.

In the OP, we have an offensive player dribbling the ball at the center line but does not have the ball and both feet in the FC. However, the defender is in the FC and he touches the ball which, if I'm understanding correctly, gave the ball FC status. Correct? The ball then is last touched by the offensive player who is the first to touch it in the BC, thus, a violation.

If I am correct on my understanding, how is that different from the scenario I presented? The ball did not have FC status since a foot was still in the BC.

What am I not following?
Maybe I found my own answer. Is the difference that in the OP we are talking about a dribble which was touched by the defender in the FC while the ball was NOT touching the offensive player in the BC vs my scenario where the offensive player was holding the ball when it was hit by the defender?

Raymond Fri Nov 14, 2008 03:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 550720)
Bear with this rookie.

In the OP, we have an offensive player dribbling the ball at the center line but does not have the ball and both feet in the FC. However, the defender is in the FC and he touches the ball which, if I'm understanding correctly, gave the ball FC status. Correct? The ball then is last touched by the offensive player who is the first to touch it in the BC, thus, a violation.

If I am correct on my understanding, how is that different from the scenario I presented? The ball did not have FC status since a foot was still in the BC.

What am I not following?
In the OP the poster added that the ball was batted into the FC by the defender (B1) before A1 retrieved it.

Spence Fri Nov 14, 2008 04:12pm
Am I correct that if during a throw in the ball is tipped by a defender and caught by an offensive player who jumped from the FC and landed in the BC we have a backcourt violation? I seem to remember reading that with the logic being that the throw in ended when touched by the defender.

Zoochy Fri Nov 14, 2008 04:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 550724)
Am I correct that if during a throw in the ball is tipped by a defender and caught by an offensive player who jumped from the FC and landed in the BC we have a backcourt violation? I seem to remember reading that with the logic being that the throw in ended when touched by the defender.
That is correct. That play was listed on the NFHS and IAABO web sites as interps. I do believe that the described play is in the case book. I believe it is under 'Back Court Violation."

Spence Fri Nov 14, 2008 04:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy (Post 550726)
That is correct. That play was listed on the NFHS and IAABO web sites as interps. I do believe that the described play is in the case book. I believe it is under 'Back Court Violation."
Thanks. One more follow-up then: Lets say it was not tipped by the defense. It was tipped by A2 in the FC and then recovered by A3 in the BC. If I'm reading the rules and definitions correctly there was no team or player control in the FC so I would have nothing. Correct?

Raymond Fri Nov 14, 2008 04:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 550724)
Am I correct that if during a throw in the ball is tipped by a defender and caught by an offensive player who jumped from the FC and landed in the BC we have a backcourt violation? I seem to remember reading that with the logic being that the throw in ended when touched by the defender.
From last season's interps.

Here are the important words: The provision for making a normal landing only applies to the exceptions of a throw-in and a defensive player, and is only for the player making the initial touch on the ball. (9-9-1; 9-9-3)

btaylor64 Fri Nov 14, 2008 04:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 550591)
I think I remember reading about this situation in the past on this board, but actually had it happen last night. I am trail, A1 bringing the ball up from BC and for whatever reason decides to start going East/West at the point where he is straddling the HC line, ball being dribbled in the FC. B1 reaches in and bats the ball just a foot or so away from A1. A1 then touches the ball with his back foot still in the backcourt. I have a violation since I have 1) team control and 2) a ball in the frontcourt once the ball was batted away 3) A1 first to touch the ball while in the BC - correct? I believe I was, but this is really a bang-bang type of play. It is beyond me why players play with fire along the HC line makes it a difficult situation to officiate. Any tips on what to focus on here to make this play "slow down"? You're watching for contact on the dribbler, ensuring that he maintains his dribble, watching to see when FC status is established...just a lot going on here..
A good rule of thumb is when you are in doubt on a violation, no call it. It's good that you used your play recall to take yourself through the play, but if you have doubt leave it alone cause if you are wrong and you are wrong 50% of the time (bad percentages as a ref) when guessing, you are better off not calling cause you are not incorrectly taking the ball away from the team.

Camron Rust Fri Nov 14, 2008 05:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF (Post 550661)
the way the play is described - since the ball was batted into the front court it is now in the front court and the dribbler is in contact with the backcourt when he picks up the ball - tough call to make but I think you have to.
Incorrect. Two key parts of the rule for there to be a violation: Team A must be the last team to touch the ball BEFORE it goes into the backcourt AND must also be the first team to touch the ball AFTER it goes into the backcourt.

Team B did the batting. The instant team A (while in the backcourt) touches the ball, the ball gains BC status. Nowever, who was the last to touch the ball before that point? Team B, not team A. No violation.

Camron Rust Fri Nov 14, 2008 05:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 550722)
Maybe I found my own answer. Is the difference that in the OP we are talking about a dribble which was touched by the defender in the FC while the ball was NOT touching the offensive player in the BC vs my scenario where the offensive player was holding the ball when it was hit by the defender?
It doesn't really matter. If A1 was constantly in the backcourt and team B touches the ball between the touches by A, you should never have a violation.



For points required for a violation:
  1. Team control
  2. Ball gains FC status
  3. Team A last to touch the ball BEFORE the ball returns to the BC (gains BC status).
  4. Team A first to touch the ball AFTER the ball returns to the BC (gains BC status).
For #2, it doesn't necessarily mean player control in the FC.
For #3, it doesn't matter WHERE team A touches the ball or if the ball still has BC status, just the order relative to gaining BC status.


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