Not Held ball time out

[OHBBREF]

Worked DIII men's Scrimage last night, there was a loose ball in front of team A bench freethrow line extended - there are three people on the floor and the ball is clearly rolling around with no possession, when a player for team B yells for time out and it is granted by the trail, at this point the ball is now rolling away from the pile up.

As the "C" I clearly saw across the lane that there was no team control or possession and spoke with the trail explaining that there was no possession for either team and no timeout could be granted.
We had an inadvertant whistle and go to the arrow, which left the ball with the offense and no reset of the shot clock. If Team B wanted the time out we would give it to them which they declined.

Question: I was 500% sure that there was never possession of the ball when I stepped in, under real game curcumstances is this appropriate - I was admonished afterward that I should let that one go as it makes Your partner and the crew look bad to blow that simple one.

I am from the schoool better to beat the tape, and get it right.

[rockyroad]

Who admonished you??

Sounds to me like you got it right and that would be the way to go on this one. No control = No TO!

[agr8zebra]

This whole notion of not appliing a rule correctly in order to "save face" for the crew is a bunch of HS!

The responsability of a crew is to officiate the game within the paramenters of the rules. If as a crew you need to admit that one of you did wrong, well then so be it. That is where we learn to not have inavertant whistles whether it is football, basketball or whatever sport.

If you do something wrong, officiate until you get it right. If someone looks bad, so be it, take it for what it was a mistake, correct it and NEVER DO IT AGAIN!

[Scrapper1]

Lots to talk about here.

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

1) Worked DIII men's Scrimage last night, there was a loose ball in front of team A bench

Very important question: how did the ball become loose? Was it off of a rebound? Or was it tipped away from the ballhandler by a defender? The answer to those questions determines the answers to #2-#5.

2) As the "C" I clearly saw across the lane that there was no team control or possession

The only way this would be true is if the loose ball immediately followed the release of a try, which was either blocked or was being rebounded (or immediately following a jump ball). If it was tipped away from a ballhandler by a defender, or if it occurred during a throw-in, then there definitely IS team control.

3) We had an inadvertant whistle and go to the arrow,

The arrow is correct here only if there is no team control; e.g., after the release of a try. If there was team control at the time the ball became loose, then you do not go to the arrow, you award it back to the team that last had control.

4) which left the ball with the offense and no reset of the shot clock.

If there really was no team control, then going to the arrow was correct -- but awarding the unexpired time on the shot clock was not correct. When we go to the arrow with no team control, there is always a reset. So either you got 3 right and 4 wrong, or you got 4 right and got 3 wrong. Sorry.

5) If Team B wanted the time out we would give it to them which they declined.

Again, incorrect. The Team B player clearly requested time-out and your partner clearly granted it. Give Team B the time-out.

6) Question: I was 500% sure that there was never possession of the ball when I stepped in, under real game curcumstances is this appropriate

I would say it was not appropriate. You should've simply given the time-out to Team B and then conferred with your partners about how the ball would be put back in play.

Rule citations to follow.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The Team B player clearly requested time-out and your partner clearly granted it. Give Team B the time-out.

Crap, I kicked that one. I thought I remembered that there was a casebook play similar to the high school rule. But there clearly is not. NCAA 5-12 says clearly that a timeout shall not be granted unless there is player control by the requesting team. So even if you blow the whistle, you don't grant the timeout. So I was wrong on #5, which means I was wrong on #6.

Having said that, it really doesn't do much good to go over and dispute it because the conversation will go like this:

You: They can't have the timeout because they didn't have player control.
Partner: Shoot, you're right. No timeout.
Coach: Since the ball's dead anyway, can I have the timeout?
You: (Awkward silence)

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

When we go to the arrow with no team control, there is always a reset.

NCAA 2-11-6c.

[M&M Guy]

Scrappy - do you have these conversations with yourself often?

(Just be careful you don't start having too much fun with yourself...)

Just to reiterate the one point you made earlier - you could still have team control, even though there was no player control during the scrum. This is important to remember in the case of going to POI after the IW.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Scrappy - do you have these conversations with yourself often?

(Just be careful you don't start having too much fun with yourself...)

Just to reiterate the one point you made earlier - you could still have team control, even though there was no player control during the scrum. This is important to remember in the case of going to POI after the IW.

Especially on loose ball scrums like this; where it's most likely to happen.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If there really was no team control, then going to the arrow was correct -- but awarding the unexpired time on the shot clock was not correct.

I went with the womens Rule
there is no reset because it was a try that did not strike the rim, thus the SC time remains.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Especially on loose ball scrums like this; where it's most likely to happen.

What's most likely to happen? Having conversations with yourself?

Dang it, there's that fun thing again.

Sorry.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Who admonished you??

The third member of the Crew long time DII/III official.
maybe that is why he is a "LONG TIME" DII/III official

Other than realizing the mistake difference men/women on the shot clock reset I think it is the right thing. We discuss things as BEAT THE TAPE.

[btaylor64]

So are you guys saying a team can be granted a TO without a player being in control of it. IOW, Player A1 passes the ball to A2 and while the ball is in mid air, team A can request and be granted a TO?????

This whole play is just screwed up or the rules are.... one of the two??? I'm going to go with the rules.


P.S. GET THE PLAY RIGHT!!! I don't care to look like an idiot at all on this play as long as we get it right! If i'm the CC i'm going to deem an inadvertent whistle and do whatever you do by rule in college. I'll then take charge when the coach is wanting and raving about getting the ball AND the TO and just tell him WE screwed up and that he isn't getting what he wants because of our screw up. (Then i get fired from that league for doing what is right, but the coach is the biggest name coach in the conference! and he is pissed!)

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

The third member of the Crew long time DII/III official.
maybe that is why he is a "LONG TIME" DII/III official

Other than realizing the mistake difference men/women on the shot clock reset I think it is the right thing. We discuss things as BEAT THE TAPE.

not meaning to nitpick but after watching tape hundreds and hundreds of times the old adage "The tape don't lie" is BS when you only have one angle of the game! The only time the tape don't lie is with multiple camera angle games.

Also, don't try to "beat the tape" cause it sounds like your playing an odds game in which you might not win sometimes. Get the play right and if the tape lies to you with one angle so be it. I've seen hundreds of plays that don't look like much on a one angle tape but in fact, on the floor in the game they were absolutely legit!

Sorry to nitpick. I'm big on terminology!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I went with the womens Rule
there is no reset because it was a try that did not strike the rim, thus the SC time remains.

As far as I can tell, there is no difference between the men's and women's rule in this situation. On a held ball, with no team control, the shot clock is reset. See the rule citation that I provided above. If the women's rule is different, please post it as I would be interested to see it.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So are you guys saying a team can be granted a TO without a player being in control of it. IOW, Player A1 passes the ball to A2 and while the ball is in mid air, team A can request and be granted a TO?????

A player must be in control of the live ball to call a time out.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

If i'm the CC i'm going to deem an inadvertent whistle and do whatever you do by rule in college.

You are going to go running in and DEEM that your partner is wrong?

Relax sparky!
All you can do is go in there and give the information that you have. You can not DEEM anything, No official has the authority to over rule another period, end of conversation. You need to supply your partner with the best information that you can and your partner then has to make the decision as to what to do.

If you go DEEMING what happened and then take charge Tell everyone what IS - even if you are right you are going to have problems not because of what you did but how you did it.


The only time I can think of that you make a call for one of your partners is if thay ask for help on an OB play, other wise you bring in the information, discuss it and then decide what you are going to do.

You go around DEEMING what is going to happen at any level you'll end up working 3rd grad traveling league all be yourself.