Not Held ball time out

[Scrapper1]

Lots to talk about here.

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

1) Worked DIII men's Scrimage last night, there was a loose ball in front of team A bench

Very important question: how did the ball become loose? Was it off of a rebound? Or was it tipped away from the ballhandler by a defender? The answer to those questions determines the answers to #2-#5.

2) As the "C" I clearly saw across the lane that there was no team control or possession

The only way this would be true is if the loose ball immediately followed the release of a try, which was either blocked or was being rebounded (or immediately following a jump ball). If it was tipped away from a ballhandler by a defender, or if it occurred during a throw-in, then there definitely IS team control.

3) We had an inadvertant whistle and go to the arrow,

The arrow is correct here only if there is no team control; e.g., after the release of a try. If there was team control at the time the ball became loose, then you do not go to the arrow, you award it back to the team that last had control.

4) which left the ball with the offense and no reset of the shot clock.

If there really was no team control, then going to the arrow was correct -- but awarding the unexpired time on the shot clock was not correct. When we go to the arrow with no team control, there is always a reset. So either you got 3 right and 4 wrong, or you got 4 right and got 3 wrong. Sorry.

5) If Team B wanted the time out we would give it to them which they declined.

Again, incorrect. The Team B player clearly requested time-out and your partner clearly granted it. Give Team B the time-out.

6) Question: I was 500% sure that there was never possession of the ball when I stepped in, under real game curcumstances is this appropriate

I would say it was not appropriate. You should've simply given the time-out to Team B and then conferred with your partners about how the ball would be put back in play.

Rule citations to follow.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The Team B player clearly requested time-out and your partner clearly granted it. Give Team B the time-out.

Crap, I kicked that one. I thought I remembered that there was a casebook play similar to the high school rule. But there clearly is not. NCAA 5-12 says clearly that a timeout shall not be granted unless there is player control by the requesting team. So even if you blow the whistle, you don't grant the timeout. So I was wrong on #5, which means I was wrong on #6.

Having said that, it really doesn't do much good to go over and dispute it because the conversation will go like this:

You: They can't have the timeout because they didn't have player control.
Partner: Shoot, you're right. No timeout.
Coach: Since the ball's dead anyway, can I have the timeout?
You: (Awkward silence)

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

When we go to the arrow with no team control, there is always a reset.

NCAA 2-11-6c.

[M&M Guy]

Scrappy - do you have these conversations with yourself often?

(Just be careful you don't start having too much fun with yourself...)

Just to reiterate the one point you made earlier - you could still have team control, even though there was no player control during the scrum. This is important to remember in the case of going to POI after the IW.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Scrappy - do you have these conversations with yourself often?

(Just be careful you don't start having too much fun with yourself...)

Just to reiterate the one point you made earlier - you could still have team control, even though there was no player control during the scrum. This is important to remember in the case of going to POI after the IW.

Especially on loose ball scrums like this; where it's most likely to happen.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Especially on loose ball scrums like this; where it's most likely to happen.

What's most likely to happen? Having conversations with yourself?

Dang it, there's that fun thing again.

Sorry.

[btaylor64]

So are you guys saying a team can be granted a TO without a player being in control of it. IOW, Player A1 passes the ball to A2 and while the ball is in mid air, team A can request and be granted a TO?????

This whole play is just screwed up or the rules are.... one of the two??? I'm going to go with the rules.


P.S. GET THE PLAY RIGHT!!! I don't care to look like an idiot at all on this play as long as we get it right! If i'm the CC i'm going to deem an inadvertent whistle and do whatever you do by rule in college. I'll then take charge when the coach is wanting and raving about getting the ball AND the TO and just tell him WE screwed up and that he isn't getting what he wants because of our screw up. (Then i get fired from that league for doing what is right, but the coach is the biggest name coach in the conference! and he is pissed!)

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So are you guys saying a team can be granted a TO without a player being in control of it. IOW, Player A1 passes the ball to A2 and while the ball is in mid air, team A can request and be granted a TO?????

A player must be in control of the live ball to call a time out.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

If i'm the CC i'm going to deem an inadvertent whistle and do whatever you do by rule in college.

You are going to go running in and DEEM that your partner is wrong?

Relax sparky!
All you can do is go in there and give the information that you have. You can not DEEM anything, No official has the authority to over rule another period, end of conversation. You need to supply your partner with the best information that you can and your partner then has to make the decision as to what to do.

If you go DEEMING what happened and then take charge Tell everyone what IS - even if you are right you are going to have problems not because of what you did but how you did it.


The only time I can think of that you make a call for one of your partners is if thay ask for help on an OB play, other wise you bring in the information, discuss it and then decide what you are going to do.

You go around DEEMING what is going to happen at any level you'll end up working 3rd grad traveling league all be yourself.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

A player must be in control of the live ball to call a time out.




You are going to go running in and DEEM that your partner is wrong?

Relax sparky!
All you can do is go in there and give the information that you have. You can not DEEM anything, No official has the authority to over rule another period, end of conversation. You need to supply your partner with the best information that you can and your partner then has to make the decision as to what to do.

If you go DEEMING what happened and then take charge Tell everyone what IS - even if you are right you are going to have problems not because of what you did but how you did it.


The only time I can think of that you make a call for one of your partners is if thay ask for help on an OB play, other wise you bring in the information, discuss it and then decide what you are going to do.

You go around DEEMING what is going to happen at any level you'll end up working 3rd grad traveling league all be yourself.

you are mistaking what i was saying and rightfully so. I worded it badly.

I was saying as the play was stated (you coming in and giving the info you gave), I, as the CC will then take the brunt of the coaches frustration upon myself and say that we had an inadvertent whistle as there was no player control and therefore we can't grant the timeout. A Good CC takes control of situations like these, they never ever impose their will just because they are the CC. They are there and in that position hopefully because they have the trifecta (great play calling, game management, and communication skills).

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If there really was no team control, then going to the arrow was correct -- but awarding the unexpired time on the shot clock was not correct.

I went with the womens Rule
there is no reset because it was a try that did not strike the rim, thus the SC time remains.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I went with the womens Rule
there is no reset because it was a try that did not strike the rim, thus the SC time remains.

As far as I can tell, there is no difference between the men's and women's rule in this situation. On a held ball, with no team control, the shot clock is reset. See the rule citation that I provided above. If the women's rule is different, please post it as I would be interested to see it.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

As far as I can tell, there is no difference between the men's and women's rule in this situation. On a held ball, with no team control, the shot clock is reset. See the rule citation that I provided above. If the women's rule is different, please post it as I would be interested to see it.

NCAA 2 7 i
is where I went and that is if you rule a held ball (kick)

You and I must be playing soccer here with all the kicking we are doing here.

[Scrapper1]

Ok, I'll play a little more soccer. . .

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

NCAA 2 7 i
is where I went and that is if you rule a held ball (kick)

First of all, you meant 2-11-7i. It took me a minute to figure it out. lol

Second, that rule only applies during a throw-in. So again, I have to point out that there is team control during a throw-in and your original post said there was no team control.

So I'm just trying to get clear what exactly happened. In any case, as I said earlier, if there's team control when the inadvertent whistle occurs, you don't use the arrow and you don't reset the shot clock. If there is no team control at the time of the inadvertent whistle, then you use the arrow and you reset the shot clock.

You can't do what you did, which is use the arrow and NOT reset the shot clock.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, just trying to make it clear.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm not trying to pick a fight, just trying to make it clear.

not a problem We/mainly Me/ kicked the reset that is a rule costs me five bucks in the jar.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

not a problem We/mainly Me/ kicked the reset that is a rule costs me five bucks in the jar.

More kicking? I guess this really is turning into a soccer forum.

Hey, you kicked in a scrimmage, at least it wasn't a game. I kicked it on a test. Now we both own it. Held ball with no team control -- RESET.