Pregame Dunks

[just another ref]

So is it true or false?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So is it true or false?

I don't think there's an official answer yet.

[OHBBREF]

ART. 4 . . . A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

I would say that this definition would be helpful in your determination of how to proceed.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

ART. 4 . . . A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

I would say that this definition would be helpful in your determination of how to proceed.

But wouldn't a good working definition of "eligible to become a player" basically be is on the roster the coach submits before the 10 minute mark? I don't see how you could determine this eligibility in any other way.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

But wouldn't a good working definition of "eligible to become a player" basically be is on the roster the coach submits before the 10 minute mark? I don't see how you could determine this eligibility in any other way.

Player B12 is dressed and warming up with the team B, dunks the ball at the 12 minute mark, and is noticed by the officials.
Player B12 is suspended from participation in this contest for an ejection in the previous game and is therfore not elegible to participate in this contest?


or

Player A11 plays for the JV and Varsity. Is dressed and warming up A11 dunks the ball at the 12 minute mark, and is noticed by the officials.
At the 11 minute mark the JV coach informs the Varsity coach that A11 played too many quarters per state rules and is inelegible to participate in this contest?

[asdf]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Player B12 is dressed and warming up with the team B, dunks the ball at the 12 minute mark, and is noticed by the officials.
Player B12 is suspended from participation in this contest for an ejection in the previous game and is therfore not elegible to participate in this contest?


or

Player A11 plays for the JV and Varsity. Is dressed and warming up A11 dunks the ball at the 12 minute mark, and is noticed by the officials.
At the 11 minute mark the JV coach informs the Varsity coach that A11 played too many quarters per state rules and is inelegible to participate in this contest?

Whack him.

Report the proceeding to the proper administrative body/bodies.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Player B12 is dressed and warming up with the team B, dunks the ball at the 12 minute mark, and is noticed by the officials.
Player B12 is suspended from participation in this contest for an ejection in the previous game and is therfore not elegible to participate in this contest?


or

Player A11 plays for the JV and Varsity. Is dressed and warming up A11 dunks the ball at the 12 minute mark, and is noticed by the officials.
At the 11 minute mark the JV coach informs the Varsity coach that A11 played too many quarters per state rules and is inelegible to participate in this contest?

My comment was aimed at what it means to us to determine eligibility. And I'm not arguing against asdf's suggestion, which is the most rational way to handle this that I recall being discussed.

When wrangling over the definition of team member, how do the rules define "eligible to become a player"? They don't. IMO, the only rules-based context we have for judging whether a kid in uniform is eligible to become a player is whether or not he is listed on the roster. If he's listed, he's eligible to become a player. If he's not listed, he's not. But if he's then added to the roster at the cost of a team T, he's now eligible.

The scenarios you propose all involve determinations of eligibility that are external to the rules of the game. We have no part in enforcing those. If external eligibility rules are violated, the enforcement also comes externally.

[sseltser]

Supposing that all coaches suddenly realize that it is the case that they can not make a player a team member so they don't get hit with a bench personnel T and an indirect. Then any time a player dunks they don't write his name in the book, add him later and take the team T.

Since the NFHS has said that they want indirects for this action, one of 2 things must be true:
a - officials penalize them as team members despite not being in the book
of
b - officials penalize for adding back into the book and then additionally penalize for the dunking as the team member is added back to the book.

I think b may be a stretch, going off of billymacs administrative T page. Is it too late to penalize this?

[OHBBREF]

Just throwing out a possibility.
I think you have to whack them and enforce before the clock starts, and actually I think the suspended player should get whacked becuase he shouldn't be dressed and warming up - but that is another issue.

I am just seeing serious trouble if this player is added to the book in third quarter you correctly issue the T for that and you go back and add a second T for the dunk before the game.

I'm not convinced you are wrong I can not find anything either way for the moment. I am just seeing lots of trouble.

[asdf]

What's so hard about this? Use some common sense here guys........

Just because he's not in the book does not mean that he's ineligble to play. It will just cost him when/if the coach decides to enter him into the game.

Assess the Technicals, count them as Team Fouls, and the indirects on the coach. If they try to enter the offenders into the game, have the scorer update the book to include the personal fouls that they have accumulated.

After the game, notify your assignor, the school's AD and/or principal, and the state association of the coach's actions.

They'll deal with it.

[bob jenkins]

I'm 95% certain that if this question were posed to the NFHS, they'd say, "It is not the intent of the rule to allow the coach to circumvent the penalty in this way. Enforce the T's, including the indirects on the coach."

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by asdf

What's so hard about this? Use some common sense here guys........

Just because he's not in the book does not mean that he's ineligble to play. It will just cost him when/if the coach decides to enter him into the game.

Assess the Technicals, count them as Team Fouls, and the indirects on the coach. If they try to enter the offenders into the game, have the scorer update the book to include the personal fouls that they have accumulated.

After the game, notify your assignor, the school's AD and/or principal, and the state association of the coach's actions.

They'll deal with it.

Don't forget to assess the team T for adding the players to the book.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Don't forget to assess the team T for adding the players to the book.

That's correct....

If the coach proposes this when everything first happens, advise him that IF the players are needed during the game, there will be an additional penalty for adding them to the book. He might just change his mind.

Then again.... maybe he won't....