Bench Personnel?

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Oh really? I thought a player became bench personnel when the substitute entered the game unless the player was DQd, then the player becomes bench personnel when you tell the coach.

I also thought that during intermission, TOs all team members were considered bench personnel.

I could be wrong, surely someone will come along & let me know Maybe even JR...

Well what's the definition of "entered then?

No, during intermission, everyone is BP, during a TO, the players in the game are not BP.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by JS 20

Well what's the definition of "entered then?

No, during intermission, everyone is BP, during a TO, the players in the game are not BP.

That is what my interp is as well, however, in the OP the substitutes had not yet entered the court so I would still have them as bench personnel. Do you have a rules/casebook citation on that? I thought it was somewhere, but couldn't find it...

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

That is what my interp is as well, however, in the OP the substitutes had not yet entered the court so I would still have them as bench personnel. Do you have a rules/casebook citation on that? I thought it was somewhere, but couldn't find it...

If your'e talking about a citation on the players not being BP during a TO, it's rule 4.34.1

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by JS 20

If your'e talking about a citation on the players not being BP during a TO, it's rule 4.34.1

Yeah the rule I have, but I thought there was a case play just like this..I agree with you that a player is not bench personnel during a timeout, but in this case where there is a substitution during the TO, the question is when does that sub become a player...depends on the definition of "enter the court" as you mentioned..

[JS 20]

I did find a caseplay where this happens during a normal dead ball and the official beckons the subs. It says the officials and scorer should try to figure out who A6,7,8 were replacing. If that can't be determined, you should rule them as bench personnel and assess the maximum penalty to the HC for the involvement of bench personnel.

[bob jenkins]

A6 is a player, so his fighting is not charged to the coach.

We don't know whether A1 and A2 are players or not (assuming the scorer doesn't know, etc), so case 3.3.1E tells us to assume they are NOT players. Charge the coach with two indirect Ts.

Originally Posted by JS 20

If your'e talking about a citation on the players not being BP during a TO, it's rule 4.34.1

Rule (-) or casebook (.)

Guess I'll have to take the 8 flights down to the parking garage to get my book out the car on lunch.

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Rule (-) or casebook (.)

Guess I'll have to take the 8 flights down to the parking garage to get my book out the car on lunch.

That's a rule. Didn't realized I neglected to hyphenate.

Rule 4-31-1: A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission.

JS 20 - Got it thanks, I don't know where I got TOs from

Back to the OP: 4-34-3 tells us the individuals who reported but didn't enter the court yet (TO) are still bench personnel.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JS 20

If this happened during an intermission, all players are bench personell.

Good catch.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

A6 is a player, so his fighting is not charged to the coach.

We don't know whether A1 and A2 are players or not (assuming the scorer doesn't know, etc), so case 3.3.1E tells us to assume they are NOT players. Charge the coach with two indirect Ts.

I want to make sure I'm reading this correctly...are you saying that A6-A8 are players at the time of the fight? If so, what is the basis for this conclusion?

In practice we don't require a sub who reports during a TO to wait outside the boundary until beckoned, but he is required to by 3-3-2. Normally it is of no consequence. But 3-3-2 is the only definition or procedure we have for how a player "legally enters the court." Coming onto the floor with the other players after a TO, or remaining on the floor with the other players after the other team members go to the bench after the TO is certainly commonplace. But I can't find anything that says this constitutes the sub legally entering the court. And if I can't find justification for the obvious and common case, how I can justify saying three subs who are still in the huddle with their team have entered the court?

But 3-3-3 and 4-34-3 are both clear. Unless A6-A8 have legally entered the court, they are not considered players until the ball becomes live.

3.3.3.E, btw, specifically states that the subs in the case play have been beckoned and have entered the court. Thus it provides no guidance on this aspect of the situation; it addresses which of the replacements to consider NOT to be players.

So in the OP I have A1 and A2 fighting as players, and A6 fighting as a bench personnel.

[Nevadaref]

2002-03 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 4: Substitutes A6, A7 and A8 report only their own numbers to the scorer for entry. The substitutes are beckoned into the game by an official and enter the court. Before their replacements leave the court, a fight breaks out with five (of the eight on-court) players from Team A and three players from Team B involved. RULING: Substitutes be-come players when they legally enter the court; in this case, when the official beckoned them onto the court. The players being replaced by A6, A7 and A8 were not known at the time of the fight to determine what players would be classified as “bench personnel.” The officials and scorer shall make an effort to determine who substitutes A6, A7 and A8 were replacing when the fight broke out. If the players being replaced by the substitutes cannot be determined, the only recourse the officials have to determine what penalties to assess the head coach for the involvement of bench personnel is to assess the maximum penalty. Of the five Team A players involved, assume three were bench personnel and assess three indirect technical fouls to the head coach, which results in ejection. Team B would also be awarded four free throws (two for each additional player involved in the fight). All participants are disqualified for flagrant fouls. Play would be resumed with a Team B throw-in from the division line opposite the scorer's table. (3-3-1; 10-3-10 Pen; 10-4-1h Pen; 2-3)