Bench Personnel?

[sseltser]

During a timeout by Team A, A6, A7 and A8 report to the scorers table to check into the game and return to A's huddle. Team B breaks their huddle and takes the floor. As B1 is walking past A's huddle towards the throw-in spot, he taunts A1 and the two begin fighting. Eventually, B1, B2, B3 and A1, A2 and A6 fight.

Assess penalties.

My biggest question is: how do officials determine who are players for A and who are bench personell? (A1-A8 can't all be considered players, can they?)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by sseltser

During a timeout by Team A, A6, A7 and A8 report to the scorers table to check into the game and return to A's huddle. Team B breaks their huddle and takes the floor. As B1 is walking past A's huddle towards the throw-in spot, he taunts A1 and the two begin fighting. Eventually, B1, B2, B3 and A1, A2 and A6 fight.

Assess penalties.

My biggest question is: how do officials determine who are players for A and who are bench personell? (A1-A8 can't all be considered players, can they?)

If you don't know who is a player and who is bench personnel, assume that they were bench personnel -- this results in the maximum penalty to the coach.

See 3.3.1E

[JS 20]

The subs had checked in and replaced the other players. The 5 players in the game (now A1 A2 A6 A7 A8) are not considered bench personnell during a timeout. If this happened during an intermission, all players are bench personell. You eject A1 and B1 immediately and then eject the other 4 for fighting. A6 is now a player and not considered bench personnel b/c this was during a timeout so no penalty on the HC.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JS 20

The subs had checked in and replaced the other players. The 5 players in the game (now A1 A2 A6 A7 A8) are not considered bench personnell during a timeout. If this happened during an intermission, all players are bench personell. You eject A1 and B1 immediately and then eject the other 4 for fighting. A6 is now a player and not considered bench personnel b/c this was during a timeout so no penalty on the HC.

How do you know A6, A7, A8 went in for A3, A4 and A5?

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

How do you know A6, A7, A8 went in for A3, A4 and A5?

sseltser said in his original post that they reported to check in and then returned to the huddle. He didn't mention them not doing so before the warning horn so I think it's safe to assume they checked in for A3 A4 A5 or A# whatever.

[jdw3018]

But that's the point...you know they checked in, but not for whom they checked in. So, when A1 and A2 participate in the fight are they players or bench personnel?

If A7 checked in for A1, then A1 should be considered bench personnel for purposes of indirect technical fouls on the coach. The question being posed by the OP is how, or whether to try, to determine this.

[chartrusepengui]

You can always ask the official scorekeeper to see if they know. If they have no definitive knowledge - you are no worse off.

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

But that's the point...you know they checked in, but not for whom they checked in. So, when A1 and A2 participate in the fight are they players or bench personnel?

If A7 checked in for A1, then A1 should be considered bench personnel for purposes of indirect technical fouls on the coach. The question being posed by the OP is how, or whether to try, to determine this.

Well then the OP should come back and be more specific.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by JS 20

Well then the OP should come back and be more specific.

How should he be more specific? It's obvious what he's asking, why it matters, and what the challenge is.

I don't have a good answer for him, but it's an excellent question.

When a team member checks in during a TO & then returns to the huddle, are they not still bench personnel until the TO is over?

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

How should he be more specific? It's obvious what he's asking, why it matters, and what the challenge is.

I don't have a good answer for him, but it's an excellent question.

Ok now I get it.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

When a team member checks in during a TO & then returns to the huddle, are they not still bench personnel until the TO is over?

Hmmm...are they? I don't have my book at the moment. This is one I definitely should know, but I'm not sure.

Now that I think about it, you may very well be right, and that's going to make this situation a whole lot easier...

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Hmmm...are they? I don't have my book at the moment. This is one I definitely should know, but I'm not sure.

Now that I think about it, you may very well be right, and that's going to make this situation a whole lot easier...

I looked through the book and couldn't find anything specific enough to cite on this.

However, I would say they're in the game and now considered players. My logic behind that is, let's say A6 goes and checks in for A1. A1 can't go out on the court after the TO is over b/c he/she was replaced and can't reenter until the clock has started. So I'd say you have to consider the subs players and the players who were replaced are now bench personnel.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by JS 20

I looked through the book and couldn't find anything specific enough to cite on this.

However, I would say they're in the game and now considered players. My logic behind that is, let's say A6 goes and checks in for A1. A1 can't go out on the court after the TO is over b/c he/she was replaced and can't reenter until the clock has started. So I'd say you have to consider the subs players and the players who were replaced are now bench personnel.

I thought there was a case play on this, but I can't find it..per 4-34-1 a substitute does not become a player until either 1) they legally enter the court or 2) if entry is not legal, they are a player once the ball becomes live...since the sub in this case has not yet entered the court they can't be a player - therefore that would still make them bench personnel....that's my reasoning anyways

Originally Posted by JS 20

I looked through the book and couldn't find anything specific enough to cite on this.

However, I would say they're in the game and now considered players. My logic behind that is, let's say A6 goes and checks in for A1. A1 can't go out on the court after the TO is over b/c he/she was replaced and can't reenter until the clock has started. So I'd say you have to consider the subs players and the players who were replaced are now bench personnel.

Oh really? I thought a player became bench personnel when the substitute entered the game unless the player was DQd, then the player becomes bench personnel when you tell the coach.

I also thought that during intermission, TOs all team members were considered bench personnel.

I could be wrong, surely someone will come along & let me know Maybe even JR...