Held ball stop clock

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I believe that there are only three ways to stop the clock, blow the whistle and signal with an open hand for a violation, blow the whistle and signal with a fist for a foul, and blow the whistle and signal with thumbs up for a held ball.

Uh, you forgot the 'T' formation!!!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Uh, you forgot the 'T' formation!!!

Technically (pun most assuredly intended) the fist is required before the formation of the T. But it's widely accepted to skip it and get straight to the good part

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Technically (pun most assuredly intended) the fist is required before the formation of the T. But it's widely accepted to skip it and get straight to the good part

Many "T"'s happen during a dead ball when the clock is stopped. Therefore, no fist is needed... straight to the "T" only.

If the clock is stopped, why are we signaling to stop the clock???

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

Many "T"'s happen during a dead ball when the clock is stopped. Therefore, no fist is needed... straight to the "T" only.

If the clock is stopped, why are we signaling to stop the clock???

While you're absolutely right, let me ask you this: A1 has the ball for a throw-in after a violation (so the clock is stopped), then B2 fouls A2 in-bounds. Do you put the fist up for the foul to stop the clock, even though the clock is already stopped?

Don't mind me, I'm just trying to stir the pot a little.

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

While you're absolutely right, let me ask you this: A1 has the ball for a throw-in after a violation (so the clock is stopped), then B2 fouls A2 in-bounds. Do you put the fist up for the foul to stop the clock, even though the clock is already stopped?

Don't mind me, I'm just trying to stir the pot a little.

yes you put a fist up because you have a live ball situation. Note in my post early I said "stopped clock" and "dead ball".

In your situation, players are running around and making a play even though the clock is stopped because the ball is "live".

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

yes you put a fist up because you have a live ball situation. Note in my post early I said "stopped clock" and "dead ball".

In your situation, players are running around and making a play even though the clock is stopped because the ball is "live".

Again, I agree with you, but my point was in the book the signal is officially, "Stop clock for foul", not "Kill a live play and make the ball dead whether or not the clock is running because a foul occured" signal. Perhaps way back in MTD, Sr's day, it was done slightly differently. But today it has evolved somewhat and is accepted that the fist is the signal for a foul, where the clock happens to stop, (if it's not already stopped), instead of the fist being the signal for the clock to stop, where there happens to be a foul. Subtle difference, perhaps? Perhaps the T has "evolved" to become a signal on it's own, rather than a type of foul, like a push or block.

I don't think anyone bats an eye anywhere in this country when an official gives the T signal without "stopping the clock" first, because it has become accepted practice. I personally like that method, because it takes a little bit of the "confrontation" out of the mechanic. Can you imagine blowing the whistle, putting your fist in the air, closing down hard on the player (or coach) while giving the optional bird-dog signal, then giving a good, hard T signal, just like you would on a close block/charge call?

[Brad]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

While you're absolutely right, let me ask you this: A1 has the ball for a throw-in after a violation (so the clock is stopped), then B2 fouls A2 in-bounds. Do you put the fist up for the foul to stop the clock, even though the clock is already stopped?

Yes, but if he mouths off to me I just STICK HIM!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

Many "T"'s happen during a dead ball when the clock is stopped. Therefore, no fist is needed... straight to the "T" only.

If the clock is stopped, why are we signaling to stop the clock???

Yep, you've got a valid point. And looking at the latest signal chart, there is no combining of signals specified. I don't have my officials manual with me. I'm going to look this up tonight. Maybe another subtle, and perfectly reasonable, change I missed.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

Many "T"'s happen during a dead ball when the clock is stopped. Therefore, no fist is needed... straight to the "T" only. If the clock is stopped, why are we signaling to stop the clock???

Good point. Sometimes we don't even have give the "T" signal, like when a player's name, and number, is added to the scorebook after the ten minute mark.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good point. Sometimes we don't even have give the "T" signal, like when a player's name, and number, is added to the scorebook after the ten minute mark.

You should give the T signal for this infraction while in the lane prior to administering the FTs. That makes it clear to everyone what is going on.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You should give the T signal for this infraction while in the lane prior to administering the FTs. That makes it clear to everyone what is going on.

Agree.

[just another ref]

Called varsity games tonight with this same partner and another guy. Turns out this mechanic was stressed to them by an evaluator who was checking to see if our association had anyone qualified to call in the state tournament. Ironically, tonight this mechanic caused a problem with the arrow. Partner has the open hand, often followed by a dramatic(?) pause. The table thought he had called a violation, did not see the held ball signal, did not change the arrow.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Uh, you forgot the 'T' formation!!!

No I didn't, as Back In The Saddle has already stated, but I did forget another way to stop the clock; just allow the period to end, the horn will sound all by itself, so there's not need for a whistle, or a signal.

[Grail]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No I didn't, as Back In The Saddle has already stated, but I did forget another way to stop the clock; just allow the period to end, the horn will sound all by itself, so there's not need for a whistle, or a signal.

Hate to argue, but if every clinic I have ever been to is correct, the official responsible for the last second shot, should blow the whistle at the end of every period.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Grail

Hate to argue, but if every clinic I have ever been to is correct, the official responsible for the last second shot, should blow the whistle at the end of every period.

Why? I only blow the whistle if a shot is taken near the horn. I know there is a thread on this subject somewhere on here; and most people say "why the need for that whistle?"