Rate my partner

[Marty Rogers]

Tony I bet the only one that really recognized this was Mark. I bet not a single coach said a word and if they did was it any different than when you actually get the rules right. I have see coaches all the time complain, and they do not even know the actual rule. They still thought I was horrible and I nailed the rule. But then again I can say this until I am blue in the face and you will still disagree. I guess life will move on.


JR: As Mark P. stated, often the coaches don't know the ref is getting the call wrong. And he often screams and
yells when you make the CORRECT call. But so what? That
has nothing to do with one's integrity as a referee.
Just because coaches complain either way, we thus can do a lousy job??? And, if Mark was the ONLY one to notice these mistakes, he is the only one who mattered anyway (except for the kids who got cheated). HE had to work with her. HE had to try to ref a game fairly with an incompetent partner. Knowing these basic calls (and they all are, except maybe the last one) is essential. One with this lack of knowledge and instinct needs to shape up, or ship out. (After 5 years) IMO

[Barry C. Morris]

Cornellref,

Here's an explanation of why these calls were wrong. I hope that you learn from the mistakes of others and this will help you out:


Situation #1 - In this case, the backcourt violation was called during a throw-in. Exception # 1 to the backcourt violation exludes this call during a jump ball or a throw-in. This should have been a no call.

Situation # 2 - This should have been a backcourt violation. All four elements were present. The ball was in A's team control. The ball had achieved frontcourt status. The ball was last touched by A1 and the ball was first touched in backcourt by team A.

Situation # 3 - In this situation, A1's dribble never ended because he never held the ball. It simply bounced off his knee and was continued a few feet away after he chased it down.

Situation # 4 - This play should have been a travel. A1 achieved player control by catching the rebound. When he touched something other than hand or foot to the floor, TWEET!

Situation # 5 - This play is funny because Mark's partner even misapplied the rule he was getting wrong already. After a made basket, the opponent may pass along the endline to another teammate and / or teammates as long as the five second count doesn't expire so there shouldn't have been a violation here. If it had been a designated spot throw-in, only the thrower can be off the playing floor, the violation would have occurred as soon as the teammate stepped out of bounds, not when he caught the pass from his teammate.

Situation # 6 - We don't judge intent in this case. If the player reaches across the boundary line and touches nothing, we issue a warning the first time and a technical the second time. If the player touches the ball, we issue a technical without warning. If the player hits the opponent, we call an intentional foul.

Situation # 7 - In the final situation, the time for B1 to request a timeout had passed because the ball was at the disposal of team A. The requested timeout should have just been ignored. There is no such thing as a technical for requesting a timeout when it's not the proper time.

[rockyroad]

Mark P - my question is this: How did your partner respond to you when you "discussed" these plays with her? Did she realize her mistakes or did she argue and try to defend her calls...let's face it, 5 years of experience doesn't necessarily mean squat - those 5 years could all be games down at the local YMCA, or they could be sanctioned HS and Jr. High games - who knows? Working with a partner who blows calls regularly is part of this "job" (not profession) - I can handle that part as long as the partners are receptive to some polite feedback...so I am interested in how she responded to you when you told her she was wrong...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
As you know, coaches rule the roost in Ohio, and decide who officiates and who does not. On two different occasions this year (one time in the presence of two other varsity officials, one of whom and taken my officiating class), that there were black balling me because I enforce the rules the way that the NFHS Rules Committee wants the rules to be enforced and not the way the coaches in NW Ohio want the rules enforced. I was told that my insistence on: 3) calling disconcerting action when the coach yells to his players along the free throw line while his opponent is shooting free throws, were among the reasons for my black balling.[/B]

Several months ago there was a very long discussion on the "other" board regarding disconcertion.You were extremely adamant at that time that you could NOT call disconcertion,by rule,on any bench member.You stated that you could only call disconsertion on a player on the floor,and that,if anyone on the bench disconcerted,the only call that could possibly be made was a T.I was just wondering what your actual call was in (3)above to get the coaches so riled-a disconsertion violation or a T?Or both?
Btw,does Ohio have any appeal process for an offical that thinks that he has been wrongfully blackballed?If not,there should be one!
Also,btw,below the D1 level,officiating is an avocation that you should pursue in a professional manner.JMO.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on May 14th, 2002 at 10:12 AM]

[stripes]

5 years experience can also be 1 year of experience done 5 times. Years of service is not a guarantee that the person is "getting it."

[Cornellref]

Barry, thanks for taking the time. It definitely helped me-
Cornellref

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Officials who get 95 on their exam don't miss those types of calls because they know the rules.

Only officials who don't know the rules and are only worried about how they look miss thos types of calls.

It depends on HOW the person got the 95. In IL, the part 1 test is take-home, open book. Too many officials just show up at the association meeting where the test is discussed, write down the correct answers and turn in the test. They score high, but they don't learn anything.

Too, (to Rut's point) many officials don't know how to read the book. They just look for the test statement in the book -- if they find it, the answer is true, if not the answer is false. They don't visualize the play being discussed so they can recognize it on the floor.

And, finally, like MP's partner -- the official too often gets positive reinforcement for making the wrong call and negative reinforcement for making the right call. IT doesn't take much of this to make a rookie official start to make wrong calls.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
The real problem is that there are too many officials who are just like her and too many of them have far more years of experience that she does.

Each and every time one of you wants to call us howler monkeys, remember this quote. The reason some of us howl is because some of us know the rules better than some of you, and we can talk some of you into calls. If I get this official, I'm going to start quoting rules passages and citing references in my howling.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by rockyroad
Mark P - my question is this: How did your partner respond to you when you "discussed" these plays with her? Did she realize her mistakes or did she argue and try to defend her calls...so I am interested in how she responded to you when you told her she was wrong...

She was not very receptive. Those of you who have had the privilege, pleasure and honor of working with me () know that I always discuss calls with a partner in a non-confrontational and non-embarrassing manner. Usually, I say something like this at a break, "Say, on that (whatever) call, I thought I saw (whatever). What did you see?"

I think there were hidden reasons she resented any comments but I will not go into them here.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
The reason some of us howl is because some of us know the rules better than some of you, and we can talk some of you into calls.

OK. Try this quiz. Answer true or false to each question. All rulings are under current NF rules. In all questions, team A is on offense and team B is on defense.

_____ 1) A1 passes to A2 who does not catch the ball cleanly. The ball hits his hands and then it drops to the floor. A2 then grabs the ball and begins to dribble. This is a violation on A2.

_____ 2) A1 is inbounding in his front court. He inbounds to A2 who is also in frontcourt. The inbound pass hits A2 in the hand, deflects into backcourt where it is first touched by A2. This is a violation on A2.

_____ 3) A1 is dribbling in the backcourt. As he approaches the division line, he dribbles the ball once in the frontcourt and steps into the frontcourt with one foot. He then touches that same foot in the backcourt. This is a violation on A1.

_____ 4) A1 dives for a loose ball and while on the floor, grabs the ball with both hands. His momentum causes him to roll over twice. This is a violation on A1.

_____ 5) A1 attempts to shoot a jump shot. B1 blocks the shot by putting his hand directly on the ball. A1 is unable to release the shot and returns to the floor holding the ball by himself. This is a violation on A1.

_____ 6) A1 shoots toward his basket. The ball misses and does not hit either the rim or the backboard. Before the ball hits the floor, it is caught by A1. This is a violation on A1.

_____ 7) Team A has used all its timeouts. During a dead ball, A1 requests a timeout. Team A is not allowed this timeout.

_____8) A1 is fouled and appears to be injured. The official beckons Coach A onto the court to attend to A1. However, before the coach can come onto the floor, A1 gets up and says he can continue. A1 is allowed to stay in the game.

_____9) A1 is dribbling the ball. B1 goes up to A1 and, while making an attempt to play the ball, he pushes A1 off the court and into the bleachers. This is a common personal foul on B1.

_____10) A1 is at the free throw line to shoot the first shot of a two-shot foul. B1 and B2 are occupying the first space next to the endline on each side of the lane, but B3 is in one of the next spaces instead of a player from Team A. A1 misses the free throw. This is a violation by Team B and A1 will be allowed to reshoot the free throw.

_____11) A1 is dribbling the ball in his backcourt following a throw-in. The official reaches seven seconds in his ten second count. A1 requests and is granted a timeout. When Team A inbounds following the timeout, they will have three seconds to get the ball into frontcourt.

_____12) There is a jump ball called and Team A will inbound under the alternating possession rule. A1 throws the ball inbounds and before it is touched by anyone on the court, A2 fouls B1. The AP arrow is switched to Team BÂ’s direction for the next alternating possession.

_____ 13) Following a made basket by Team B, A1 will inbound on the endline. Prior to throwing the ball in, A1 asks for a timeout and it is granted. When Team A comes back to inbound the ball, they have lost the right to run the endline on the inbound play and there will be a spot throw-in instead.

_____ 14) While shooting a two-point shot, A1 is intentionally fouled by B1. The shot goes in the basket. The basket counts and A1 will be awarded one free throw, then Team A will get possession of the ball for a throw-in.

_____ 15) A1 attempts a shot. Prior to his leaving the floor, B1 establishes and maintains legal guarding position. A1 releases the ball toward the basket, then falls on B1. The shot goes in the basket. The basket counts and A1 is charged with an offensive foul.

_____ 16) During the last two minutes of the fourth quarter, immediately following a basket by A1, Team B requests and is granted a timeout. After the timeout, Team B may, at their option, inbound the ball at the midcourt line.

_____ 17) A1 is standing in the frontcourt with his feet inside the lane. After two seconds, A2 takes a shot and the ball rebounds to A3. Two seconds later, A3 takes a shot. A1 has been in the lane a total of 4 seconds. This is a violation on Team A.

_____ 18) A1 is dribbling the ball with his right hand and has his left forearm extended to protect the ball. B1 attempts to swipe at the ball and makes contact with A1Â’s extended forearm. This is a foul on B1.

_____ 19) A1 is dribbling the ball. The ball bounces high and he dribbles once with his hand higher than his shoulder. This is a violation on A1.

_____ 20) Following a violation by Team B, A1 is inbounding on a spot throw-in. While holding the ball, he begins to pivot on his left foot. He then changes and pivots on his right foot. This is a violation on A1.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Barry C. Morris

Situation # 2 - This should have been a backcourt violation. All four elements were present. The ball was in A's team control. The ball had achieved frontcourt status. The ball was last touched by A1 and the ball was first touched in backcourt by team A.

Barry - just to put on my nit-picky hat for a moment, the fourth element is that the ball was first touched by team A after it had been in the backcourt. There's a subtle difference in the wording. Plus, of course, the third must include the words in the frontcourt.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

1. F (you can fumble-dribble-fumble, but not dribble-fumble-dribble)
2. F (no team control)
3. F (while dribbling, must have all three points across)
4. F (since it was his momentum, no violation, but hard to picture rolling over twice)
5. F (this is a held ball if the official judges the block to have prevented the release of the ball)
6. F (if the official judges this to be a try, no violation under NFHS rules)
7. F (official must grant the request, then assess a technical foul)
8. F (unless, under this year's rule change, team A calls a timeout)
9. F (the severity of the contact, knocking the player into the bleachers, would probably cause the official to call this an intentional foul)

10. F
11. F (restart the count)
12. F (the throw-in, by definition, has not been completed, and the arrow doesn't change until the throw-in is completed)
13. F
14. F (shoot two for all intentional fouls, except those on a player in the act of missing a three-point try)
15. F (the play is dead at the time of the foul, the basket would only count if the ball had already passed through the basket)
16. F (throw-in at same spot as before timeout)
17. F (team control ends on a try, and there must be team control for a three-second violation)
18. F
19. F (the height of the dribble has nothing to do with anything, except to make the fans go OOOOOOOH)
20. F (A1 may dance a jig if he'd like, so long as he keeps at least one foot on or over the designated three-foot space)

How'd I do?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Again, just because you have book knowledge does not mean that you will know what to call when you see it on the court. Reading a situation is much, much different than seeing the play or plays on the court.

But if you don't have rules knowledge, you definitely won't know what to call.

Just because you can quote a rule does not mean you will apply it the proper way when you have coaches, players, fans and other officials in the stands picking at everything you do. There is a thing called pressure and knowing how to stay cool under those circumstances.

But then again Tony you are right. Officials that know the rules do not make those mistakes. But if officiating was only about rules, then officiating would be a lot better. I had a baseball game this evening and the argument that I had at home plate had nothing to do with knowing the rules. It did have to do with my judgement that was being questioned by the coach. It was a much bigger factor how I handled the situation. I could have gotten mad and struck back at the coach and called him names but then again I would never officiate that conference again, and I definitely probably could have kissed my career in all my sports goodby too.

I'm not discussing judgment, I'm discussing rules knowledge. Your baseball play has nothing to do with this. All of the plays that Mark brought up are rules knowledge. They have nothing to do with judgment.

Tony I bet the only one that really recognized this was Mark. I bet not a single coach said a word and if they did was it any different than when you actually get the rules right. I have see coaches all the time complain, and they do not even know the actual rule. They still thought I was horrible and I nailed the rule. But then again I can say this until I am blue in the face and you will still disagree. I guess life will move on.

I will disagree with what?

Coaches don't know the rules. As Marty stated, so what?Does that mean that we shouldn't call the play properly or that we shouldn't know the rules? Mark's partner looked good on the court, yet she missed the plays. I would rather get the call right than look good making a bad call.

As Chuck said "Knowing the rules is no guarantee that an official will make the correct call on the floor. But not knowing the rules makes it almost impossible for an official to make the correct call on the floor." Mark's partner didn't know the rules.

Originally posted by bob jenkins
It depends on HOW the person got the 95. In IL, the part 1 test is take-home, open book. Too many officials just show up at the association meeting where the test is discussed, write down the correct answers and turn in the test. They score high, but they don't learn anything.

Bob, in NC, we take our annual exam closed book, so that's what I was baseing my statement.

I would think most would agree that they would rather be on the floor with someone who is a little unpolished but knew the rules as opposed to someone who looked real good, but kept blowing any rule applications. Or is that just me?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

Each and every time one of you wants to call us howler monkeys, remember this quote. The reason some of us howl is because some of us know the rules better than some of you, and we can talk some of you into calls. If I get this official, I'm going to start quoting rules passages and citing references in my howling.

Coach, in 31 years of officiating basketball, I know only two high school coaches that knew the rules. Notice I said knew the rules, not knew the rules better than the officials. The first one, was my high school coach, who believed that you could not teach the game if you did not know the rules. The second one, who is a varsity coach, who has the same philosophy and is a good young official to boot. I keep trying to lure him from the dark side and only officiate.

Regardless of the competency of the officials, the vast majority of officials (good, bad, or indifferent) should score better than most coaches on a rules test.

[JRutledge]

This discussion has taken on a life of his own. You have completely missed the original point. You have missrepresented my argument time and time again. You keep talking about things that I did not say and do not seem to understand or want to understand the point.

Tony, you need it all. You cannot pass a stupid test and go out on the court and think you will be the perfect ref. Most coaches, players, fans or evaluators and officials will not have a clue about your test score unless you tell them. I have never had a coach ever ask me what my score on the Part 1 or Part 2 and then treat me differently because of that fact. But I have come to the basketball game early, looking like a professional, I might be treated differently than the officials that shows up in their uniform. But to me that is really only a very small part of it. That is does not really have nothing to do with your presense on the court. That has more to do with your professionalism, which most of us would agree we are very much judged by.

Look, I have quoted rules to coaches only to have them think I was crazy and I got no where with them. But when I handle myself with confidence and act as the calm surrounded by the storm, coaches and players respect that much more. And that confidence does not just come from knowing the rules, it comes from knowing my mechanics, understanding the game, knowing myself and many times my partners. Just knowing what my partners are going to do or what their characteristics are like can be an extremely calming influence on how you present yourself. The less you have to worry about the better.

Here this and quote it if you need to. THE MORE YOU KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THE RULES, THE MORE YOU WILL HAVE PRESENSE ON THE COURT. In the game of basketball you are not judged as often by rules. Their are usually many more myths in the game of basketball then the games of football and baseball. So because of that fact, just simply being able to quote a rule is not going to be something that you will be judged on in as big a way as many officials think. Yeah when you mess up you will, but if you have no rules mess ups and you call a perfect game, it will be the "other" things that will affect how you are precieved. Just something as wearing glasses can affect how coaches treat you. Seen any D1 officials with glasses lately? I am sure they wear them, but you will not see them on the court that is for sure.

Tony, rules are the foundation for what we all do. You cannot be an official without knowledge and knowing how to apply rules. But I know several officials that know the rules but do not know the game or understand the game. You know what many of us call common sense. That is why I do not officiate and probably never will officiate volleyball or soccer. I might understand the rules of both games, but I did not play either and do not understand the "common sense" of the game. As I said the rules are the foundation, but not the end all be all of the game or officating. You have to build on that. Why do you think Ed Rush asked me all those questions about my competitive background? The NBA game is surely much different in the rules as compared to NF or even college to a great extent. Not by much, but the things you do and do not do at the NBA as an official is totally different than what most of us do. And if that is not the case, why do many of officials that are below those levels not understand or cannot agree on what the rules are for or what is being called on a regular basis?

Let us agree on this Tony, if I have a chance to work with a guy or gal that is an official, I will want different things from them then you will. Not much different than the discussion that I had with Stripes about camps. He has no problem spending $1000 on going to a single camp and travelling to do so. I would rather stay local and learn from people that I will have to deal with. But also because of where I live I am exposed to officials that work in the NBA, other pro leagues and D1 College for both Men's and Women's ball. So my area has that wealth of great officials surrounding me, and Stripes might have to travel to get that. I do not know that but it might explain some of the arugments that both of us had on camps. This discussion between you and I Tony or anyone else that disagrees with me might just be a product of our environment.

Peace