Strange Sideline Inbounds play

[zeedonk]

And speaking of men's rec leagues....

This happened last night- I'm trail administering sideline throw in. A1 gets the ball and begins searching for a teammate for inbounds. B1 is guarding A1 and there is proper distance between the two. Both take a step towards e/o and then notice they are nearly nose to nose and look at each other. I'm watching and see no violation so I continue my count.

B1 starts hacking at the ball, and amazingly, hits nothing but air (these guys are BAD) A1 notices this and reaches onto the court and holds the ball above B1's head. I can't believe that B1 hasn't fouled A1, so I dart my eyes back to B1's flailing arms-still nothing. As I moved my eyes, I thought I saw A1 touch the ball to B1's head, but I wasn't sure. Yes, all this happened in 5 seconds...

A1 then inbounds and off we go. As we go, A1 asks why B1 didn't get a T for reaching in, I say b/c he didn't hit anything and once A1 moved the ball onto the court, it's in play and B1 can grab for it. B1 comes by and says, Hey, he hit me on the head with the ball- I say, I saw him place the ball over you but didn't see him touch you with it. Disaster averted...

Question is- If A1 DID touch B1 with the ball, I'd call out of bounds violation on A1 as he was standing OOB while the ball contacted the player in bounds (right?) Or should I have killed the play when I saw them too close and moved them both away? Preventive officiating or improperly stopping the play?

Thanks,
Z

[Adam]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

A1 then inbounds and off we go. As we go, A1 asks why B1 didn't get a T for reaching in, I say b/c he didn't hit anything

While you were right in not calling the T, should you have perhaps called a delay of game violation? If B1, in his flailing, reached across the plane, it should have been a delay of game. If he didn't reach across, then whether or not he touched the ball is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by zeedonk

B1 comes by and says, Hey, he hit me on the head with the ball- I say, I saw him place the ball over you but didn't see him touch you with it.

I would have asked B1 why he didn't just grab it, then.

Originally Posted by zeedonk

Question is- If A1 DID touch B1 with the ball, I'd call out of bounds violation on A1 as he was standing OOB while the ball contacted the player in bounds (right?)

No, not right. This is not a violation.

Originally Posted by zeedonk

Or should I have killed the play when I saw them too close and moved them both away? Preventive officiating or improperly stopping the play?

Why were they too close? There's no distance requirement here, so you have no right to move them away from each other. Let this play out.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

Question is- If A1 DID touch B1 with the ball, I'd call out of bounds violation on A1 as he was standing OOB while the ball contacted the player in bounds (right?)

No. While A1 is still holding the ball, he's allowed to be out of bounds with it. If A1 held it over the line, and B1 slapped at it but didn't dislodge it, you wouldn't call an out of bounds violation on A1, would you? Your situation was the same.

The ball is allowed to be touched while it has out of bounds status during the throw-in. If the ball is being held on the out of bounds side of the boundary plane, then only the throw-in team is allowed to touch it. But if it is on the inbounds side of the boundary plane, then either team may touch it and not violate.

Those throw-in provisions are in effect until the ball is released on the throw-in pass. In your case, since the ball hadn't been released, it's not a violation on either team when the ball touches the defender.

Or should I have killed the play when I saw them too close and moved them both away? Preventive officiating or improperly stopping the play?

You should only move them apart when there is physically not enough room for the inbounder to back up for extra space. If the inbounder has plenty of room behind him, but chooses to stand right on the boundary line, that's his problem, not yours.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

While you were right in not calling the T, should you have perhaps called a delay of game violation? If B1, in his flailing, reached across the plane, it should have been a delay of game.

Don't have time to look it up right now but isn't there a difference in rules between NFHS and NCAA-M concerning a defensive player reaching through the plane (w/o making contact to player or ball)?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Don't have time to look it up right now but isn't there a difference in rules between NFHS and NCAA-M concerning a defensive player reaching through the plane (w/o making contact to player or ball)?

Dunno, but don't forget that in NF, if a player reaches across and hits the ball (which is a player technical), that also counts as a delay warning against the team. I know that's easy to forget.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Don't have time to look it up right now but isn't there a difference in rules between NFHS and NCAA-M concerning a defensive player reaching through the plane (w/o making contact to player or ball)?

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Dunno, but don't forget that in NF, if a player reaches across and hits the ball (which is a player technical), that also counts as a delay warning against the team. I know that's easy to forget.

It's the same for NCAA-M. But I think there are differing enforcements for just reaching across the plane (other than the flight attendant smacking your hand for interfering with cart service )

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's the same for NCAA-M. But I think there are differing enforcements for just reaching across the plane (other than the flight attendant smacking your hand for interfering with cart service )

Don't know about NCAA, but in fed rules, it's a DOG for merely reaching across the plane. If, on the first offense, the player touches the ball in the process, it's a warning and a technical foul.

[Raymond]

NCAA reads as follows in the penalty section of rule 10:

Men 10-6 Art 1.: j. Reach through the throw-in boundary-line plane AND touch or dislodge the ball while it is in possession of the thrower or being
passed to a teammate outside the boundary line as in 7-5.8.a.

Women 10-3:
Art. 7. After a team warning has been issued, the opponents of the thrower-in having any part of their person beyond the vertical inside plane of any boundary line before the ball has crossed that boundary line.

Art. 8. Reaching through the throw-in boundary-line plane and touching or dislodging the ball while it is in possession of the thrower or being passed to a teammate outside the boundary line as in 7-5.8.a. This act shall also serve as a team warning for reaching through the boundary. (See Rule 4-17.1.g)

In NCAA-M there is no reference for a penalty for reaching across the plane.(BTW, I don't know why 7-5.8.a is referenced above, it's not applicable to this rule).

I know the NCAA-W clinic made major emphasis to the additional article added to the women's side.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

NCAA reads as follows in the penalty section of rule 10:

Men 10-6 Art 1.: j. Reach through the throw-in boundary-line plane AND touch or dislodge the ball while it is in possession of the thrower or being passed to a teammate outside the boundary line as in 7-5.8.a.

Women 10-3:
Art. 7. After a team warning has been issued, the opponents of the thrower-in having any part of their person beyond the vertical inside plane of any boundary line before the ball has crossed that boundary line.

Art. 8. Reaching through the throw-in boundary-line plane and touching or dislodging the ball while it is in possession of the thrower or being passed to a teammate outside the boundary line as in 7-5.8.a. This act shall also serve as a team warning for reaching through the boundary. (See Rule 4-17.1.g)

In NCAA-M there is no reference for a penalty for reaching across the plane.(BTW, I don't know why 7-5.8.a is referenced above, it's not applicable to this rule).

I know the NCAA-W clinic made major emphasis to the additional article added to the women's side.

NCAA Rule 7, Art. 6.

Until the throw-in ball crosses the plane of the sideline or end line:
b. No opponent of the thrower-in shall have any part of his or her person over the inside plane of the boundary line;

NCAA Rule 9, Art. 4. (Men)
The opponents of the thrower-in shall not have any part of their person beyond the vertical inside plane of any boundary line before the ball has crossed that boundary line.

[BillyMac]

The defender may not break the imaginary plane during a throwin until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass. If the defender breaks the imaginary plane during a throwin before the ball has been released on a throw-in pass, the defender’s team will receive a team warning, or if the team has already been warned for one of the four delay situations, this action would result in a team technical foul. If the defender contacts the ball after breaking the imaginary plane, it is a player technical foul and a team warning will be recorded. If the defender fouls the inbounding player after breaking the imaginary plane, it is an intentional personal foul, and a team warning will be recorded.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

While A1 is still holding the ball, he's allowed to be out of bounds with it. If A1 held it over the line, and B1 slapped at it but didn't dislodge it, you wouldn't call an out of bounds violation on A1, would you? Your situation was the same.

The ball is allowed to be touched while it has out of bounds status during the throw-in. If the ball is being held on the out of bounds side of the boundary plane, then only the throw-in team is allowed to touch it. But if it is on the inbounds side of the boundary plane, then either team may touch it and not violate.

Those throw-in provisions are in effect until the ball is released on the throw-in pass. In your case, since the ball hadn't been released, it's not a violation on either team when the ball touches the defender.

Scrapper1: These all sound good to me, but can you provide some citations that cover these situations, especially the first one you mentioned where "A1 held it over the line, and B1 slapped at it but didn't dislodge it". Thanks.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Scrapper1: These all sound good to me, but can you provide some citations that cover these situations, especially the first one you mentioned where "A1 held it over the line, and B1 slapped at it but didn't dislodge it". Thanks.

I don't have any citations, because I don't think there are any. Here's my reasoning, though. There's a specific casebook play, 7.6.4A telling us that it's legal for a defender to slap and dislodge a ball when the inbounder holds it across the boundary line. If it's legal to slap and dislodge it, how can it be illegal to slap but not dislodge it? It's the exact same action, except the inbounder is holding on a little tighter in one situation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I don't have any citations. There's a specific casebook play, 7.6.4A telling us that it's legal for a defender to slap and dislodge a ball when the inbounder holds it across the boundary line. If it's legal to slap and dislodge it, how can it be illegal to slap but not dislodge it? It's the exact same action, except the inbounder is holding on a little tighter in one situation.

Why say you don't have any citations? Thanks for the citation.

While attempting a throw-in, A1 holds the ball through the plane of the end line. B1: (a) slaps the ball from A1’s hand(s); or (b) simply grabs the ball and then throws it through B’s basket. Ruling: In (a), no violation has occurred and play continues. In (b), score two points for Team B.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

NCAA Rule 7, Art. 6.

Until the throw-in ball crosses the plane of the sideline or end line:
b. No opponent of the thrower-in shall have any part of his or her person over the inside plane of the boundary line;

NCAA Rule 9, Art. 4. (Men)
The opponents of the thrower-in shall not have any part of their person beyond the vertical inside plane of any boundary line before the ball has crossed that boundary line.

But Billy, can you cite anywhere in the NCAA-M rules set that shows a penalty for such a violation? NCAA-W specifically reference this action for penalty as I cited earlier. The Mens side has no penalty for this action.

[Lotto]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

But Billy, can you cite anywhere in the NCAA-M rules set that shows a penalty for such a violation? NCAA-W specifically reference this action for penalty as I cited earlier. The Mens side has no penalty for this action.

Sure it does:

9-5, Art. 3. (Men) The opponents of the thrower-in shall not have any part of their person beyond the vertical inside plane of any boundary line before the ball has crossed that boundary line.

9-15. Floor-Violation Penalties (Applies only to Rules 9-3 through 9-14)
Art. 1. The ball shall be come dead or remain dead when a violation occurs. The ball shall be awarded to a nearby opponent for a throw-in at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.