Multiple foul?

[jritchie]

I know a multiple foul is called when 2 players foul a player at the same time. When it's a 2 point shot and the fouls are called and the basket doesn't go in the player gets one shot per foul, for still a 2 shot penalty.
What would be the free throws of a multiple foul that would be called on say a 3 point shot that doesn't go in? and then a multiple foul on a 3 pt shot that does go in? Just wondering! Never seen it happen, for that matter, I've never seen a multiple foul called either!

[Scrapper1]

Straight from the summary of penalties:

Multiple Foul:
(a) One free throw for each foul:

(1) No try involved.
(2) Successful or unsuccessful two-point try or tap.
(3) Successful three-point try or tap.

(b) Two free throws for each foul:

(1) Intentional or flagrant foul.
(2) Unsuccessful three-point try or tap.
Plus ball for throw-in if intentional or flagrant.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Straight from the summary of penalties:
Multiple Foul:
(a) One free throw for each foul:
(1) No try involved.
(2) Successful or unsuccessful two-point try or tap.
(3) Successful three-point try or tap.
(b) Two free throws for each foul:
(1) Intentional or flagrant foul.
(2) Unsuccessful three-point try or tap.
Plus ball for throw-in if intentional or flagrant.

Great answer. Seemed to be right on the tip of your tongue. How many multiple fouls have you called recently?

For me, it seems that whenever a situation arises where there might be a multiple foul, one foul always occurs a few fractions of a second before the other one.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For me, it seems that whenever a situation arises where there might be a multiple foul, one foul always occurs a few fractions of a second before the other one.

By rule, this doesn't really matter. 4-4-11 uses the phrase "at approximately the same time." Also, in the case of a shooter, the most common time a multiple foul would occur, the first foul would not cause the ball to become dead.

Not that I've ever called a multiple....

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

By rule, this doesn't really matter. 4-4-11 uses the phrase "at approximately the same time." Also, in the case of a shooter, the most common time a multiple foul would occur, the first foul would not cause the ball to become dead.Not that I've ever called a multiple

Thanks for the citation. Let me fix my recent post:

For me, it seems that whenever a situation arises where there might be a multiple foul, one foul always occurs a second, or more, before the other one.

I've been doing this for twenty-seven years, never called a multiple foul, never had a partner call a multiple foul, never saw a multiple foul called in a game. I've officiated over 700 high school games, as well as a ton of middle school, travel, recreation games, etc, and I've watched a lot of games both before, and after, my games. Why do you think it is that I've never seen a multiple foul called?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks for the citation. Let me fix my recent post:

For me, it seems that whenever a situation arises where there might be a multiple foul, one foul always occurs a second, or more, before the other one.

Still irrelevant.....approximately is not confined to a specific time frame.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I've been doing this for twenty-seven years, never called a multiple foul, never had a partner call a multiple foul, never saw a multiple foul called in a game. I've officiated over 700 high school games, as well as a ton of middle school, travel, recreation games, etc, and I've watched a lot of games both before, and after, my games. Why do you think it is that I've never seen multiple foul?

Not becasue they don't happen but becasue we choose to call only one. I've seen what technically qualifies as a multiple foul several times...even several times in one game. Have I ever called one? No.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not because they don't happen but because we choose to call only one. I've seen what technically qualifies as a multiple foul several times...even several times in one game. Have I ever called one? No.

Why not?

And when we chose not to call them, when we see what "technically qualifies as a multiple foul" (your words), what do we tell the coach who wants two shots for his, or her, multiply fouled player?

[lpneck]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Why not?

And when we chose not to call them, when we see what "technically qualifies as a multiple foul" (your words), what do we tell the coach who wants two shots for his, or her, multiply fouled player?

You know people are itching for the season to start when they want to argue about what to say to a coach who is begging for a multiple foul.

[Adam]

If coach asks for a multiple foul? Are you serious? Billy, in all your 27 years of not calling this, have you ever had a coach ask why?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If coach asks for a multiple foul? Are you serious? Billy, in all your 27 years of not calling this, have you ever had a coach ask why?

Of course, I'm not serious, I'm just pushing the envelope.

I am, however, curious. Curious about why at least one member of our Forum has "seen what technically qualifies as a multiple foul several times, even several times in one game", yet these multiple fouls are seldom, if ever, called. I bet there are probably other Forum members who can say the same thing.

If ever questioned by a coach, and, so far, I never have, I would tell the coach that the fouls did not happen at the same time. That's how I rationalize it the few times that I may have seen something that looks like a possible multiple foul and not called it. Why haven't I called it? Probably because I don't want to appear to be an overly officious official.

This past season, I called a "punching the ball" violation, and had to deal with questions from my colleagues about being an overly officious official. I once called a double foul in the first period of a game, and was told, at halftime, by my higher ranked partner to never call such an "odd" foul when working with him again, a point both of us still disagree on. I don't think anybody wants to appear like they're showing off by calling odd fouls and violations. Some say that the best officiated games are the ones where you don't notice the officials. Call a multiple foul, and you will get noticed. I guarantee it.

Anybody else want to offer an opinion as to why these very rare multiple fouls probably do occur, but are seldom, if ever called?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Anybody else want to offer an opinion as to why these very rare multiple fouls probably do occur, but are seldom, if ever called?

My opinion:

1) In the beginning, there was the foul.

2) Then, someone asked "what happens if two players foul each other?" Thus begat the double foul.

3) Referee, being human, occasionally messed up the application of the double foul, applying it when the conditions weren't met. Thus begat the false double foul.

4) To "close the loop", the rules makers added a "false multiple foul" to cover the situation where the person who was fouled gets fouled again (after a period of time, but before the ball becomes live).

5) You can't have a "false double foul" without having a definition of a "multiple foul", so that was also added to the book.

IOW, it's there not to be called (in the normal pace of play), but merely so other parts of the book make some sense.

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Of course, I'm not serious, I'm just pushing the envelope.

I am, however, curious. Curious about why at least one member of our Forum has "seen what technically qualifies as a multiple foul several times, even several times in one game", yet these multiple fouls are seldom, if ever, called. I bet there are probably other Forum members who can say the same thing.

If ever questioned by a coach, and, so far, I never have, I would tell the coach that the fouls did not happen at the same time. That's how I rationalize it the few times that I may have seen something that looks like a possible multiple foul and not called it. Why haven't I called it? Probably because I don't want to appear to be an overly officious official.

This past season, I called a "punching the ball" violation, and had to deal with questions from my colleagues about being an overly officious official. I once called a double foul in the first period of a game, and was told, at halftime, by my higher ranked partner to never call such an "odd" foul when working with him again, a point both of us still disagree on. I don't think anybody wants to appear like they're showing off by calling odd fouls and violations. Some say that the best officiated games are the ones where you don't notice the officials. Call a multiple foul, and you will get noticed. I guarantee it.

Anybody else want to offer an opinion as to why these very rare multiple fouls probably do occur, but are seldom, if ever called?

IMO, they're seldom called b/c the official is unsure how to handle it. I think, and again, just my opinion, that they just swallow the whistle on the second/simultaneous one b/c it's an easy sell to the offensive coach that defender A1's foul knocked the shooter into defender A2 which caused that foul or something along those lines. However, let's say A1's foul is on the arm (very visible to everyone) and A2's foul is w/ the body and the shooter goes to the floor. Then you better bring a better explanation to the coach on why you called one and not both. If I'm the coach and you give me some crap explanation, I'm asking you why the second guy gets a free shot on my shooter just because you called the foul on the first guy only.

[grunewar]

I mostly referee "sub-V" so these situations don't arise much as the refs and/or coaches aren't as "knowledgeable" of the rules as those more experienced at the V level. So, lets say this situation arises in a high-level V game, are there really that many experienced V coaches who are going to argue this or want the call? Argue vehemently or just half-hearted? Argue to be heard or make a point? %? Just curious.

[Scrapper1]

First of all, JS's scenario (B1 fouls A1, A1 then crashes into B2.) is not a multiple foul, just to be clear. It's a false double foul. A multiple foul is when more than one player foul the same opponent (B1 and B2 foul A1 at the same time). Having said that. . .

Originally Posted by grunewar

So, lets say this situation arises in a high-level V game, are there really that many experienced V coaches who are going to argue this or want the call? Argue vehemently or just half-hearted? Argue to be heard or make a point?

I've worked roughly 250 varsity high school games and roughly half that number of college games.

I've never, not even once, had a coach ask for a multiple foul.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I've never, not even once, had a coach ask for a multiple foul.

I did......only because the ball was in mid air on a 74 foot pass and I wanted the throw in at half court.