New Correctable Error?

[iref4him]

In the 2008-09 High School Basketball Rules Simple & Illustrated, Page 25, the bottom illustration, says

3-3-3 Number 4 runs onto the court without being beckoned by an official, while the ball is live. The penalty for this infraction is a technical foul. If the official fails to detect the illegal entry and it is detected by the scorer, he or she may call it to the official's attention. When this error occurs and it is not immediately penalized, it may be corrected, provided it is recognized before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball after the infraction occured.


I thought it would be to late to penalize, since Number 4 already became a player. Also, I did not see this as a correctable error.

Any thoughts???

[JRutledge]

The rule says it may be corrected. That does not mean it is a correctable error. You are thinking waaaayyyyyy too much.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Maybe I'm also thinking way too much, but what are they saying can be corrected? Removing the player from the game? Assessing the penalty? Iow, if the scorekeeper says the player ran on the court, and they tell us during the "correctable error time period", then can we now penalize that with the T? But, if the scorekeeper doesn't get a chance to tell us during that "correctable error time period", then we can't correct it or penalize it? That sounds a lot like a correctable error.

Is this perhaps one of those famous "unannounced changes"? Or just a possible mistake in the wording of the "Simplified and Illustrated"?

[iref4him]

I'm sorry, it just doesn't state that in the rule that is cited 3-3-3. It does state "If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live." In the past, it was just an oops. Now it is confined to the correctable error time to fix, kind of. Just didn't make sense. Maybe I have had way to much time on my hands today. Thanks for your input!!!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by iref4him

In the 2008-09 High School Basketball Rules Simple & Illustrated, Page 25, the bottom illustration, says

3-3-3 Number 4 runs onto the court without being beckoned by an official, while the ball is live. The penalty for this infraction is a technical foul. If the official fails to detect the illegal entry and it is detected by the scorer, he or she may call it to the official's attention. When this error occurs and it is not immediately penalized, it may be corrected, provided it is recognized before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball after the infraction occured.


I thought it would be to late to penalize, since Number 4 already became a player. Also, I did not see this as a correctable error.

Any thoughts???

It is too late to penalize. Correcting it, IMO, would mean sending #4 back to the table. Of course, then I would immediately beckon him/her on the court.

I guess this is one of those that needs to be sent to NFHS headquarters so that we can get a really confusion interp.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I guess this is one of those that needs to be sent to NFHS headquarters so that we can get a really confusion interp.

No need....see case book play 10.2.2:

During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court.
RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live during the first dead ball.

Note that the PENALTY section of rule 10-2-2 states "Penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live." Iow if the illegal substitution occurs during a live ball, you therefore can still penalize until the next live ball.

It is what is is.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

No need....see case book play 10.2.2:

During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court.
RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live during the first dead ball.

Note that the PENALTY section of rule 10-2-2 states "Penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live." Iow if the illegal substitution occurs during a live ball, you therefore can still penalize until the next live ball.

It is what is is.

But now the "Simplified and Illustrated" is saying a scorekeeper can supply that same information; would you count that as "recognized by an official"?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But now the "Simplified and Illustrated" is saying a scorekeeper can supply that same information; would you count that as "recognized by an official"?

Is the scorekeeper an official? Once the scorekeeper has notified you, do you count as an official?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Is the scorekeeper an official? Once the scorekeeper has notified you, do you count as an official?

I know, and I agree with you for the most part. One of the scorekeeper's duties is to notify the official about infractions due to substitutions or the number of players. I guess there just seems to be something vaguely wrong with this apparent adding an additional time limit to it.

Maybe my brain just vaguely needs a weekend.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I know, and I agree with you for the most part. One of the scorekeeper's duties is to notify the official about infractions due to substitutions or the number of players. I guess there just seems to be something vaguely wrong with this apparent adding an additional time limit to it.

Maybe my brain just vaguely needs a weekend.

To me this seems to address an additional situation. The "normal" situation is a sub who comes on illegally during a dead ball. That's covered, and if we miss it, he's legal once the ball is live. The statute of limitations, as it were, is well defined.

How do you apply that rule to the situation where an illegal sub runs on during play? Is he legal immediately since the ball is live? Is he legal the next time the ball becomes live? This ruling makes the answer clear.

It also addresses the reality that while we are expected to see it happen during a dead ball, we're likely watching other things during a live ball. Thus some help from the scorekeeper is reasonable.

But the language they employ has a definite correctable error "flavor" to it. I don't like that.

My $0.02

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But now the "Simplified and Illustrated" is saying a scorekeeper can supply that same information; would you count that as "recognized by an official"?

Yup.

If the coach of the other team brought it to my attention, and we could determine that there definitely was an illegal substitution, I can't see us having any other choice but to call it. It happened. We recognized it. We caught it according to the restrictions in the book. Too bad...so sad...without over-thinking it.

[M&M Guy]

Ok, good. I'm done over-thinking for the week.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

How do you apply that rule to the situation where an illegal sub runs on during play?

As I said, rule 10-2-2PENALTY tells you exactly what to do. Whether illegal substitution occurs during a live ball or a dead ball, you can penalize it...as the rule states... only if you discover it before the ball becomes live.

The PENALTY works exactly the same for an illegal substitution during both live and dead balls. If illegal substitution occurs during a dead ball, to penalize it you have to discover it before the ball again becomes live. And if illegal substitution occurs during a live ball, similarly, to penalize it you have to discover it before the ball again becomes live also. The rules language applies equally to both situations.

[M&M Guy]

Geeze, BITS, stop over-thinking the play.

(It's political season; I'm sure I have a few more flip-flops in me before it's over.)

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Geeze, BITS, stop over-thinking the play.

(It's political season; I'm sure I have a few more flip-flops in me before it's over.)

Ok, good. I'm done over-thinking for the week.