newbie rules question

[cdoug]

This fall/winter is my 1st year officiating basketball and I have been reading the NF rules book trying to get ready for the season.

I have a couple of questions about what I read that seem contradictory to other rules and posts that I've read here over the last 10 months. I'm sure that you will correct me and my thinking since I'm probably missing something. Any help is greatly appreciated.

4.19.9 and 4.19.12 both state something about the second or last foul, respectfully, occurring before the clock is started following the first and at least one of the attributes of a double/multiple foul is present.

Now, I thought that according to 4.19.1Note there couldn't be a foul after the ball was dead unless it was ruled flagrant or intentional (if not committed by the airborne shooter)

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by cdoug

Now, I thought that according to 4.19.1Note there couldn't be a foul after the ball was dead unless it was ruled flagrant or intentional (if not committed by the airborne shooter)

You're absolutely right about this. 4-19-9 and 4-19-12 define FALSE double fouls and FALSE multiple fouls. The word "false" means that the two fouls in question don't happen at the same time.

So try to picture this situation. A1 attempts a try for goal and is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. After the whistle has sounded for the foul and after the play is clearly over, A1 turns and shoves B1 to the floor.

This is a false double foul. The second foul occurs after the ball is dead and while the clock is stopped, but still must be penalized, because it is intentional.

Does that make sense?

P.S. -- this is not a big deal, but rule citations for high school are written with dashes (4-19-12) and case plays are written with periods (4.19.12). I knew exactly what you were referring to, but if you see someone else's post, I didn't want you to go to the rule book when they were talking about a particular case play.

[cdoug]

Okay, I think I understand.

It's "false" because the fouls don't happen at approximately the same time but yet the second needs to be penalized because it's intentional or flagrant. Right?

Thanks for the heads-up on the Rule Book references vs. the Case Book references. Sorry for the incorrect notations.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by cdoug

It's "false" because the fouls don't happen at approximately the same time but yet the second needs to be penalized because it's intentional or flagrant. Right?

Wrong. It's false only because there's a time lag between the times that the fouls occurred and the fact that both fouls occurred before the clock started again.

The second foul doesn't necessarily have to be intentional or flagrant. The second foul can be an ordinary technical foul. The second foul foul can also be a common personal foul-example: a foul committed during a FT attempt or on a throw-in before the clock has started.

Rule 4-19-1 refers to specific plays only...contact after the ball has become dead. You can also have non-contact technical fouls as part of false double fouls; you can have personal fouls as part of false double fouls too because the ball can again become live before the clock starts(as on free throws and throw-ins).

Don't get hung up on the terminology. The basic thing to remember is just that you penalize the fouls in the order that they occur.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by cdoug

It's "false" because the fouls don't happen at approximately the same time but yet the second needs to be penalized because it's intentional or flagrant. Right?

And because it's a false double foul, we penalize the fouls in the order they occur. So in the example I gave above, we'd shoot the free throw(s) for B1's foul, with the lane cleared. No rebounding.

Because we then have to shoot the 2 free throws for A1's technical foul (dead ball contact). And then we'd give the ball to Team B for a throw-in at midcourt.

With a true double foul (two opponents fouling each other at the same time), we record the fouls, but we simply resume play at the point of interruption. No free throws.

Thanks for the heads-up on the Rule Book references vs. the Case Book references. Sorry for the incorrect notations.

Please, please, please. Don't be sorry. It's not a big deal at all. I didn't say it to make you feel bad. I just want you to be able to look up future rule/case citations without confusion.

[Scrapper1]

JR beat me to it again.

[Back In The Saddle]

Jurassic alludes to another important point: The clock being started/stopped and the ball being alive/dead are entirely independent.

You said "...occurring before the clock is started following the first..."

There can be a lot of basketball played, and a lot of non-basketball things happen, before the clock starts again. As JR mentioned, you could have free throws, during which the ball is live, and you could have a common personal foul committed. Or you could have a throw-in, and again, a common foul committed. Or even possibly a jump ball following a the first foul, during which a common foul may be committed.

And I totally agree about the terminology. You need to know what a false double foul is, but you'll never call or report a "false double foul." You just need to know it so that you aren't confused when it happens and try to apply the double foul penalty. Penalize them in the order they happened, that's the part you really need to internalize.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by cdoug

This fall/winter is my 1st year officiating basketball and I have been reading the NF rules book trying to get ready for the season.

I have a couple of questions about what I read that seem contradictory to other rules and posts that I've read here over the last 10 months. I'm sure that you will correct me and my thinking since I'm probably missing something. Any help is greatly appreciated.

4.19.9 and 4.19.12 both state something about the second or last foul, respectfully, occurring before the clock is started following the first and at least one of the attributes of a double/multiple foul is present.

Now, I thought that according to 4.19.1Note there couldn't be a foul after the ball was dead unless it was ruled flagrant or intentional (if not committed by the airborne shooter)

Just to add (to the confusion) -- you can also have two personal fouls that meet this definition. A1 is fouled by B1 (before the bonus). During the throw-in (the ball is now live, but the clock hasn't started), A2 fouls B2.

No one (well, except some on this forum) thinks of this as being a "false double foul" -- they just think of it as being "two fouls" (and, "damn, this game is taking a long time to finish.")