Excessive time out

[zeedonk]

Thought I'd run this play from last night by everyone to see what we think:

Late in 4th Q, team A is out of TOs. Team A brings ball in after made basket and I am the new trail (2 man).

A1 takes 2 dribbles, stops and turns to me signalling a time out and verbally requesting time out. We are the only two in the backcourt and I have no idea why he asked for a TO, but hey, I ain't playin', so I grant the time out. As I hit the whistle, A1 starts begging off saying "no, no, no".

It's a close game and the kid just had a brain cramp. I had to give the TO, everyone in the gym heard and saw him ask for it. I also had to hit the team with a "T" for excessive TOs. Coach was more ticked at the player and I told him that I didn't really have a choice and he didn't give me any grief. If it matters, it was a boys 12U summer league game.

How do we all handle the on court requests for TOs they don't have? Does the time and score of the game matter?

Thanks

Z

[BktBallRef]

You give them the TO. There is no other choice.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

Thought I'd run this play from last night by everyone to see what we think:

Late in 4th Q, team A is out of TOs. Team A brings ball in after made basket and I am the new trail (2 man).

A1 takes 2 dribbles, stops and turns to me signalling a time out and verbally requesting time out. We are the only two in the backcourt and I have no idea why he asked for a TO, but hey, I ain't playin', so I grant the time out. As I hit the whistle, A1 starts begging off saying "no, no, no".

It's a close game and the kid just had a brain cramp. I had to give the TO, everyone in the gym heard and saw him ask for it. I also had to hit the team with a "T" for excessive TOs. Coach was more ticked at the player and I told him that I didn't really have a choice and he didn't give me any grief. If it matters, it was a boys 12U summer league game.

How do we all handle the on court requests for TOs they don't have? Does the time and score of the game matter?

Thanks

Z

On blow out, I tend to mis-hear these requests - by either team. In a close game, I call it every time. Playing smart is just as important as playing hard; the kid learned that this game. In the end, it's 12U - no NCAA scholarships are at stake (I think). He probably won't even remember this game 2 weeks from now.

As for handling it, you grant it just like any other request, and stick to your guns if people moan and groan. Like I said, if it's a blow out, conveniently be looking at the fans, clock, your P, etc... so that they have that second it takes them to recall that they don't want one.

[mick]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

On blow out, I tend to mis-hear these requests - by either team.

I'd hear, see and grant it for a very good lesson.

[Mark Padgett]

JR - the only way this kid will learn not to do it again is if you call it. If you don't, he has learned only that officials are inconsistent when it comes to enforcing the rules. Is that the lesson you want him to learn?

You seem to indicate that since it's "only" a 12U game, it doesn't matter. Gotta disagree with you. In our local kids rec league, our philosophy (and policy) for over 30 years is to enforce the rules, then explain it if you need to, so the kids actually learn the right way to do something. Not enforcing rules just confuses them and causes problems for the league, especially for the next official that has their game and has the same situation come up.

[JugglingReferee]

I have no problem if others call it for their league.

The only U12 league in which I referee, called the YBL, players often struggle with dribbling more than 4-5 times in a row. Sure, there's the odd kid who does well - until s/he's scooped up by the all-star leagues. Knowing about timeouts is the furthest thing from their mind.

Now, the 15U league - different story.

If it's in your league, then go for it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Not enforcing rules just confuses them and causes problems for the league, especially for the next official that has their game and has the same situation come up.

Amen.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Not enforcing rules just confuses them and causes problems for the league, especially for the next official that has their game and has the same situation come up.

I absolutely agree with this, but sometimes struggle.

Along with my JV/MS circuit I ref in two Youth Rec Leagues. In one league I am the only state certified official and in the other I am one of only a few.

As I am one of the only ones who knows most of the rules (I'm not as good as some of you guys yet) and tries to enforce them, I sometimes confuse the coaches and players by enforcing the proper rules while others don't - i.e., earrings, necklaces, hair clips, shirts tucked, time outs, travel, back court, intentional foul, etc. and not enforcing the myths i.e. - reach, moving screen, over the back, etc. (you know, the good ones) while other less experienced refs continue to perpetuate the myths.

While I am sometimes "the bad guy", I believe most of the coaches/players appreciate me explaining the proper rules to them when there is an issue (thanks Forum members).

[TravelinMan]

I can't fault you Zee for giving TO, but I do think the coach has some responsibility in this one. Was coach aware he was out of TOs? If so, he should have told the players that, instead of taking his anger out on a 12 year old. What kind of lesson is the coach giving in this instance. A simple "we all make mistakes and we should learn from them, keep playing hard" instead of "getting ticked off" at a player, is the mature, adult thing to do.

Originally Posted by TravelinMan

A simple "we all make mistakes and we should learn from them, keep playing hard" instead of "getting ticked off" at a player, is the mature, adult thing to do.

Hey we are talking about YOUTH coaches here aren't we

[zeedonk]

Originally Posted by TravelinMan

I do think the coach has some responsibility in this one. Was coach aware he was out of TOs? If so, he should have told the players that, instead of taking his anger out on a 12 year old.

Yes, the coach knew he was out of time outs and he told his team at the last dead ball (I heard him). The player was his son and while "ticked off" might imply yelling at the player, he did not. Both coach/dad and son/player and his teammates actually handled it rather well.

I'm glad you brought up coach's reaction, so I could clear that up, but I was more interested in the collective philosophy of granting or not granting, and why or why not. I think it is relevant for our discussions how the situation was handled by the participants, so I am happy to report it was handled well, at least I thought so.

[Adam]

If it's a clear request; make the call every time. If there's any doubt, ignore it until it's clear.

[Y2Koach]

i agree with most of the posters above

Just make sure to call it both ways.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

i agree with most of the posters above

Just make sure to call it my way.

Fixed it for ya'.

[JugglingReferee]

Had a game last night. Ok, ok, it was football. Score was 37 - 0. Approximately 30 seconds left in 4Q, with no chance of obtaining possession, team B wants a timeout. We flat out said no.

After the game, coach admits that the right thing to do was not allow the timeout.

Back to the basketball situation. I just found out that in some of the divisions of the U12 league in my area, they don't even keep score. It's clearly an instructional league, with a focus on fundamentals.

HS games in my area are very competitive. There are 6 HSs in my city and each one has had a time in history when it was favoured. This type of league I'd call an excess TO.