What do you have???

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I'm going to go back and read everyone's post later, but for now I'm just going to tell you what i have:...

Next, on the transition play I have a block, according to my pro standards which is all i've ever learned, but with my new knowledge of a player having to be airborne I guess it would be a charge, either way there absolutely, necessarily has to be a whistle on this play! this is not a play that can be left alone! some ppl might say we can't see how much contact there was from that angle but the offensive player goes down really hard and is hurt so I would deem that sufficient contact.

Lastly, the block by the player in green is legal. He takes it to the board not off the board.

This is the problem with you working other levels of basketball. You admit that you have only learned a pro philosophy so that is the only way in which you can view plays. Unfortunately, that means that you are getting a number of calls wrong when working at the NCAA or NFHS levels, if you continue to do so. I would ask you to please cease working those levels of play and just focus on the pro games if that is your goal. Those of us who work those games don't need you making incorrect decisions based upon rules and principles from another level of play. It only makes our lives harder and counters all that we do towards educating the fans, coaches, and players at those levels.

I put three specific comments of yours in RED above which are incorrect in either an NCAA or NFHS game.

1. You now know that and openly admit that you judge block/charge by the start of upward movement of the offensive player while the NCAA and NFHS standard is when both feet of the offensive player have left the floor. You say that you would have a block by the favor-the-offense pro-philosophy, but then you actually admit that since you now know the correct criterion for NCAA and NFHS this play could only be considered a charge. So what would you actually call during an NCAA game? If your answer is block for the reason previously stated, then you have no business on a college floor. Unfortunately, the pro game has destroyed the balance between the offense and defense and that makes it far less appealing to watch. Clearly the NBA brass believes that offense sells tickets, but there are many fans that appreciate defense and the pro game consistently over-penalizes and screws the defense.

2. An offensive player tries to jump over and around a defender by flinging his body at an awkward angle and you are going to give him a call because he "goes down really hard and is hurt". Are you serious??? That's an incredibly immature comment. All that it shows is that the official isn't courageous enough to stand the heat of making the proper decision and would rather take the easy way out. Please show me in the rules where injury is the standard by which to judge a foul.

3. For the GT decision whether the ball has struck the board or not means absolutely nothing at the NFHS level and didn't matter for NCAA either until last year. That was a recent change in the college game. Thanks for letting us know your pro view of this play, but please make it clear for other officials reading this forum that you are employing those criteria and not the NFHS rules.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

But that is exactly the point. If you have 2 similar plays that can go either way and you had a "?????" on one end of the court then why wouldn't you have "?????" on this end?

What if both close plays occur on the same end of the court? Should the officials call both plays the same so that both close decisions go against the same team?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What if both close plays occur on the same end of the court? Should the officials call both plays the same so that both close decisions go against the same team?

What a great point! I forgot about that rule requiring an equal number of fouls to be called on each team. Thanks for reminding me.

[JRutledge]

I do not think it is clear there was actually any contact with the defender by the shooter. It looks very possible that the shooter was preparing for contact and just fell. After all there was no call by the official and we cannot see if there was much contact if any. I did not clearly see the shooter bounce off the defender. I saw a shooter just fall to the floor.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

But that is exactly the point. If you have 2 similar plays that can go either way and you had a "?????" on one end of the court then why wouldn't you have "?????" on this end?

Because there is no signal for "?????" No two plays are identical. If you
had a similar play earlier and called a block, should you call a block here in the name of consistency? NO Should you call pc to "balance the game?" NO
See the play and call it no matter what the last call was.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

...See the play and call it no matter what the last call was.

Well, if you're the Crew Chief and that's how you want it done then that's how we do it.

But I have worked with plenty of officials who are far more successful than I who pre-game "If we have a 50/50 play and we call a block, then if we have a similar 50/50 play later on the other end then we call a block in the name of consistency."

[mu4scott]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think it is clear there was actually any contact with the defender by the shooter. It looks very possible that the shooter was preparing for contact and just fell. After all there was no call by the official and we cannot see if there was much contact if any. I did not clearly see the shooter bounce off the defender. I saw a shooter just fall to the floor.

Peace

Looks pretty obvious to me there is contact. I realize the camera angle makes things a little subjective, but the offensive player's body is clearly altered after he releases the ball.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mu4scott

Looks pretty obvious to me there is contact. I realize the camera angle makes things a little subjective, but the offensive player's body is clearly altered after he realeases the ball.

It does not look obvious to me because he fell like a bag of bricks. And considering I have seen that play for real, and the defender never moved (his feet were basically in the same place, which is a clear sign he flopped), there might have been some contact, but not contact that caused the shooter to fall.

Peace

[mu4scott]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It does not look obvious to me because he fell like a bag of bricks. And considering I have seen that play for real, and the defender never moved (his feet were basically in the same place, which is a clear sign he flopped), there might have been some contact, but not contact that caused the shooter to fall.

Peace

When a player is going hard to the basket like this it doesn't take much of a bump to get them off balance. I'm not adament that it should be a block or a charge, but I do think it needs to be one or the other.

After pausing the play and looking at the lead officials position when the "crash" occured he has the same angle as we do (his lack of hustle duelly noted).

At each camp I went to this summer it was drilled in our heads that if you have players on the floor in a situation like this (block/charge calls especially) you better have a whistle.

[Brad]

Traveling on green post player for sure.

Blocking foul on other end and it is not even close.

Good block -- not goaltending.

[Nevadaref]

I have reorganized some statements from your post so as to respond to its content in the most effective way.

Originally Posted by mu4scott

When a player is going hard to the basket like this it doesn't take much of a bump to get them off balance.

So what if he is off balance due to some contact? WHO CAUSED THAT CONTACT? If you are going to penalize the defender on a play such as this, then you must articulate exactly what the defender did that was illegal.
If he merely stood there and the offensive player bumped into him and was thrown off balance, then you should not be penalizing the defender.
You have yet to state what you believe the defender did that was illegal.

Originally Posted by mu4scott

At each camp I went to this summer it was drilled in our heads that if you have players on the floor in a situation like this (block/charge calls especially) you better have a whistle. I'm not adament that it should be a block or a charge, but I do think it needs to be one or the other.

That has been the philosophy of the NCAAW game for a few years now, but it has not been and currently is not the concept used in NCAAM games or NFHS games. Sometimes severe contact occurs that is just incidental and does not require a whistle even if there are multiple bodies on the floor. Despite what you are hearing at camp, that is acceptable under the right circumstances in the NCAAM and NFHS games.

Originally Posted by mu4scott

After pausing the play and looking at the lead officials position when the "crash" occured he has the same angle as we do (his lack of hustle duelly noted).

Great job of recognizing the troublesome position of the official at the time of the critical play, and some really cool work in freezing and positng the video frame!
This is what is called getting straight-lined. The official is lined up with the two players such that he cannot see between them. Thus he has no angle to see or judge any contact that may occur. This official has a very poor position from which to try to make a decision on this play. Learn from his mistake and work hard for proper angles on possible contact situations.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Brad

Blocking foul on other end and it is not even close.

Why, Brad? Please be specific. What did the defender do that was so clearly illegal in your view?

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Well, if you're the Crew Chief and that's how you want it done then that's how we do it.

But I have worked with plenty of officials who are far more successful than I who pre-game "If we have a 50/50 play and we call a block, then if we have a similar 50/50 play later on the other end then we call a block in the name of consistency."

Awww...you didnt have to tell everyone about me!!!!!! LOL!!!!!

[mu4scott]

That is my bad for not being clear on my thoughts. I think the defender was late in getting there and his contact caused the offensive player to lose his balance and fall awkward. If I was standing on the baseline and the defender merely flopped and the offensive player was never touched and simply lost his balance then I have nothing. IMHO I think there was contact so I have to have a whistle.

As far as the “players on the floor philosophy” goes I’m only repeating what I heard and was told by a handful of DI men’s clinicians as well as an assigner. Bodies on the floor then you better have a whistle.

I have mad photoshop skills.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Why, Brad? Please be specific. What did the defender do that was so clearly illegal in your view?

Maybe he's going with the block because of the flop?