Block/Charge:John Adams Theroy

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Ever met people from Ontario? Like TM or GS?

I have met and count as friends a number of Canadian basketball officials.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Rut:

I was not planning on attending the IAABO Fall Rules Interpreters' Meeting in September because Start H.S. has a home football game that Friday night and as vice-president of the athletic boosters I am in charge of the concession stand. But I think I am going to beg my wife (she is the real brains of the concession stand, after all she has a degree in business and I am just a structural engineer) to let me go because I can assure you that if John takes that position at the meeting he will be called upon the carpet by quite a few people who are more learned than me on the subject matter and I consider myself quite learned.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. The college football season is just around the corner. Go Penguins!! Beat the Leathernecks.

Maybe you because you are a Penguin, I am not getting your connection to the IAABO Meetings and the NCAA Meetings. You lost me there Mark.

Also what I said was rather tongue and cheek. I just love how people talk big and bad here about what they their position, but likely would never go to those people and talk directly to them about their positions. I know when I had the opportunity to talk to Mary Struckoff about a mechanics issue I had the opportunity and I actually asked her for clarification.

Also the NCAA does not have any officials on the Rules Committee. These rules are made by only coaches who in most cases do not know how the rule should be applied that they just wrote. This is not as bad on the basketball side, but the football side there are rules created that make no sense and you can tell that officials never helped the committee with the writing of the rule. John has a right to tell his officials how to call the game. The Rulebook is not the end all be all of officiating the rules. If that was the case, why have camps or other trainings of officials if all you had to do is read a rulebook. If you do not like it, then do what you feel is best. But for those that work games under the NCAA, his opinion is very valid and I have no problem following it. And in reality this play is very rare and might not happen most of the season. Once again I love how people obsess over something that really is not a common occurrence. And if you do not work that level, why would you care what anyone says about those rules? I know when I hear how the NBA wants to do something; I do not lose a millisecond of sleep over how they call the game.

Peace

[Y2Koach]

Regarding standing underneath the basket = automatic block

What if A2 is driving to the basket along the left baseline and gets past B2. B4 rotates to help B2 and establishes LGP directly underneath the basket. A2, thinking B4 is going to attempt to block the shot attempt, jumps from the left side of the lane, trying to get to the right side of the lane for a reverse layup. Automatic block?

[zebraman]

I wonder if the original post in this thread was not related word-for-word. Is it possible that John Adams said (or meant) "when the ball has passed through the basket" rather than "when the ball has left the players hand" and is it possible that he meant to say that it is a no-call rather than a block?

Here is a quote from last year's NCAA men's POI's:

This year, the charge and block situations occurring at the basket area are
the points of emphasis. Any illegal contact that occurs at the basket area by
either the offensive or defensive player (block, charge, player control fouls)
shall be accordingly penalized as prescribed by the rules. Only when the
following occurs shall the penalty not be applied:

2. When the defensive player has legally established a position under the
basket and contact occurs after the ball passes through the net, unless
the defensive player has been placed at a disadvantage (e.g., inability to
rebound, unable to put ball in play without delay.)

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

Regarding standing underneath the basket = automatic block

What if A2 is driving to the basket along the left baseline and gets past B2. B4 rotates to help B2 and establishes LGP directly underneath the basket. A2, thinking B4 is going to attempt to block the shot attempt, jumps from the left side of the lane, trying to get to the right side of the lane for a reverse layup. Automatic block?

Seeing how LGP was established before A2 went airborne, unless B4 comes out of his verticle plane it sounds like a PC to me coach.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Here is a quote from last year's NCAA men's POI's:

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Seeing how LGP was established before A2 went airborne, unless B4 comes out of his verticle plane it sounds like a PC to me coach.

We really need Mr. Spelling Guy back.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

We really need Mr. Spelling Guy back.

Not really... your -errrr- you're (or should I say) you are doing one heck of a job filling in

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Hank always attended the meetings (because he was a member of IAABO) in his capacity as Rules Editor

But when he was NCAA coordinator of officials, he did not attend, right? I would not expect Mr. Adams to attend an IAABO meeting. Ed Bilik is now the rules editor, btw.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Maybe you because you are a Penguin, I am not getting your connection to the IAABO Meetings and the NCAA Meetings. You lost me there Mark.

Also what I said was rather tongue and cheek. I just love how people talk big and bad here about what they their position, but likely would never go to those people and talk directly to them about their positions. I know when I had the opportunity to talk to Mary Struckoff about a mechanics issue I had the opportunity and I actually asked her for clarification.

Also the NCAA does not have any officials on the Rules Committee. These rules are made by only coaches who in most cases do not know how the rule should be applied that they just wrote. This is not as bad on the basketball side, but the football side there are rules created that make no sense and you can tell that officials never helped the committee with the writing of the rule. John has a right to tell his officials how to call the game. The Rulebook is not the end all be all of officiating the rules. If that was the case, why have camps or other trainings of officials if all you had to do is read a rulebook. If you do not like it, then do what you feel is best. But for those that work games under the NCAA, his opinion is very valid and I have no problem following it. And in reality this play is very rare and might not happen most of the season. Once again I love how people obsess over something that really is not a common occurrence. And if you do not work that level, why would you care what anyone says about those rules? I know when I hear how the NBA wants to do something; I do not lose a millisecond of sleep over how they call the game.

Peace

Rut:

I can't believe you would purposely misapply a rule just because our exalted ruler makes a nonsense statement about how a rule is to be applied. I hope that there are officials who have his ear and tell him the issue a mea culpa and move forward.

Long ago in a galaxy far away when Hank Nichols was the NCAA Men's Rules Editor and Dick Schindler was the NFHS Rules Editor, they would attend the IAABO Fall Rules Interpreters Meeting and each would give a presentation and take question concerning the new rules for that school year and any other rules or mechanics question that was posed to them.

I know that Dick would answer any letter or telphone call and give rules interpretations of any official would wrote him or called him. I know, I exchanged letters with him and telephone calls with him concerning rules interpretations. He did not hide behind Mary's wall of pushing it off on state rules interpreters. Dick know and understood how important it was to have the same rule interpretation no matter what state in which the game was played. Hell, Hank would take phone calls from officials for rules interpretations too back in the day.

The fact is if John Adams really made the statement that MOfficial is attributing to him then somebody close to him needs to set him straight.

MTD, Sr.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But when he was NCAA coordinator of officials, he did not attend, right? I would not expect Mr. Adams to attend an IAABO meeting. Ed Bilik is now the rules editor, btw.

Yes he did. I have not attended the Rules Interpreters meeting for the last four years do to my position as in officer in our sons' H.S.'s athletic boosters club, meaning I am running the concession stand on Friday nights at football games. Hank is a long time member of IAABO so it is not unusual for him to attend this meeting anyway, especially this year because it is in New Jersey and Hank lives near Philadelphia, if my memory serves me correct.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

I personally like Adams philosophy because how is the defender going to gain any advantage while being under the basket, unless a defender is going baseline and is not going for a try on goal. I would like to call this a no call for the most part unless the contact is enough to warrant a block.

I disagree; players attempting reverse layups would be well defended by a player under the basket. It might work for a "rule of thumb," but to make it hard and fast is asinine.

[Nevadaref]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
We really need Mr. Spelling Guy back.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Not really... your -errrr- you're (or should I say) you are doing one heck of a job filling in

No, I can't fit into his shoes! There is just so much.

Originally Posted by MOofficial

Block/Charge:John Adams Theroy

Just listened to John Adams speak about his theroy on the block charge under the basket.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Rut:

I can't believe you would purposely misapply a rule just because our exalted ruler makes a nonsense statement about how a rule is to be applied. I hope that there are officials who have his ear and tell him the issue a mea culpa and move forward.

There were people that had the same ear of Hank in his interpretations and he did not seem to care. I can tell you from personal experience, John does not care what you or I think about his interpretation or philosophy. Believe me, he will tell you what he thinks in very explicit ways. And I am sure he is very aware of what the rule is, but wants the game called a certain way.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Long ago in a galaxy far away when Hank Nichols was the NCAA Men's Rules Editor and Dick Schindler was the NFHS Rules Editor, they would attend the IAABO Fall Rules Interpreters Meeting and each would give a presentation and take question concerning the new rules for that school year and any other rules or mechanics question that was posed to them.

And the NCAA Meeting was held in Chicago and now it is not anymore. Funny, both the NCAA Official Coordinators live in Indianapolis and now the meeting is there instead of Chicago. That was then and this is now.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I know that Dick would answer any letter or telphone call and give rules interpretations of any official would wrote him or called him. I know, I exchanged letters with him and telephone calls with him concerning rules interpretations. He did not hide behind Mary's wall of pushing it off on state rules interpreters. Dick know and understood how important it was to have the same rule interpretation no matter what state in which the game was played. Hell, Hank would take phone calls from officials for rules interpretations too back in the day.

The NF is very different than the NCAA. There are fewer schools across the country (which means fewer coaches, administrators and anyone else to deal with) than are in my state. At least at the Division 1 level there are only around 320 schools in basketball alone. That number is fewer if you include some other sports. In my state alone, there are over 700 schools. I do not think the NF wants to get involved in every possible situation that every school experiences (including the officials, which is another issue). And I do not know about you, but I never worked a game for Mary and likely never will (even when she ran my State Official’s Department). When Mary tried to standardize training with their little program, most states rejected that piece of crap before it was available for sale. It is clear the NF has little power to tell states what to do and what not to do. I am just surprised that guys like you have not realized that yet.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The fact is if John Adams really made the statement that MOfficial is attributing to him then somebody close to him needs to set him straight.

And what are you going to say when he does not give a rat's azz?

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

where did Adams say this at?

I personally don't think it is such a big deal. I remember going to a clinic (baseball) where (NCAA Coordinator at the time) Dave Yeast was a clinician. He was talking in front of all of us and said "The Official NCAA stance is to call the strikezone as it says in the rulebook"... then he looked at us and he gave his a speech on how he believes the strikezone should be called and he went on to explain some things that are part of the game with the strikezone (catchers pulling pitches, the high strike, etc...). It's not that big of a deal that he said it if this is what he believes.

And two years ago I was at the NCAA Meeting in Indy when Yeast basically talked about philosophies that the rules did not cover and how to handle them. I did not see anyone then start challenging him on his opinions then and now. Also he said the CCA Book simply a guide and said that the book basically a bunch of mechanics that everyone could easily agree upon. Funny, if you were to say that on this board there would be mutiny.

Peace