Difference of understanding with P...

[Coltdoggs]

Trying to get myself straight on a couple things....

First...I ended up with an inadvertant whistle...There was a full court press on and I hear TIMEOUT. I hit the whistle and both coaches are looking at me...I looked at offensive team coach and ask :30 or full? He said, I didn't request TO. I go w/ IW.

Subs were at the table for both teams. My P said they could not enter the game on IW...I thought they could because it's now a dead ball.

Secondly...

Very early in first half....Had a held ball with PA going toward Team A....During the dead ball before the inbound the table notifies that A23 is not in the book and scored the last bucket for Team A.

We issue Admin T....Team B shoots the two FTs. Team Bs ball...Correct?

I thought since it was a Tech...it should have been team Bs ball and the arrow did not change. Partner said we go back to POE and resume play and team A got the ball....then the arrow changes to Team B

What is correct? in this scenario...

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Subs were at the table for both teams. My P said they could not enter the game on IW...I thought they could because it's now a dead ball.

Secondly...

I thought since it was a Tech...it should have been team Bs ball and the arrow did not change. Partner said we go back to POE and resume play and team A got the ball....then the arrow changes to Team B

Sounds like your partner was thinking about NCAA rules. In the NCAA, if the clock is stopped in the last minute of regulation or OT for an inadvertent whistle, then no subs are allowed. But even in NCAA, the subs are allowed at other times of the game.

Also in NCAA (men), you administer most technical fouls and then resume at the POI. This is only true in NFHS for double technical fouls.

So if you were supposed to be using NFHS rules, you were right both times. If you were using NCAAM rules, then your partner was right the second time and may have been right the first time, depending on when the inadvertent whistle occurred.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

... In the NCAA, if the clock is stopped in the last minute of regulation or OT for an inadvertent whistle, then no subs are allowed...

Isn't that only for NCAA-W? NCAA-M if the whistle blows then subs get to come in?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Isn't that only for NCAA-W? NCAA-M if the whistle blows then subs get to come in?

The short answer is "no".

Both rulesets prohibit subs from entering in the last 59.9 seconds when the clock is stopped for an accidental whistle. There was some difference when the rule first appeared between what constituted an accidental whistle. Those differences may be gone now. I can't find my NCAA book at the moment, and the NCAA website is not cooperating. So somebody else will have to supply the actual citation from Rule 3.

[APG]

Art. 7. (Men) Substitution shall not be allowed when the game is stopped in the last 59.9 seconds of the second half or any extra period to correct a timing mistake or for an inadvertent whistle.

(Women) Substitutions shall not be allowed when the game is stopped in the last 59.9 seconds of the second half or any extra period for anything other than a timeout, a violation or a foul.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Art. 7. (Men) Substitution shall not be allowed when the game is stopped in the last 59.9 seconds of the second half or any extra period to correct a timing mistake or for an inadvertent whistle.

(Women) Substitutions shall not be allowed when the game is stopped in the last 59.9 seconds of the second half or any extra period for anything other than a timeout, a violation or a foul.

Thanks, gamer. I like the Women's rule better on this one. I remember some discussion about blowing the whistle for the ball bouncing away from the inbounder. Should we let subs in at that point? It's not really an inadvertent whistle. I think the answer was that it actually is an inadvertent whistle, because you didn't need to blow it -- the clock was already stopped.

In any case, I think the Women's rule is clearer, more specific and easier to administer.

[TravelinMan]

Hate to be picky, but to be more accurate you DO mean POI (point of interruption) right?

[Lotto]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I remember some discussion about blowing the whistle for the ball bouncing away from the inbounder. Should we let subs in at that point? It's not really an inadvertent whistle. I think the answer was that it actually is an inadvertent whistle, because you didn't need to blow it -- the clock was already stopped.

This doesn't seem that complicated to me. If you're inbounding the ball, then the game was stopped. If it was stopped for a timing mistake or an inadvertent whistle, the subs stay at the table. If it was stopped for another reason, then the subs have already entered!

[Adam]

What about the subs that came after the ball was handed to the inbounder?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by TravelinMan

Hate to be picky, but to be more accurate you DO mean POI (point of interruption) right?

I'm sure I have no idea what you're talking about!!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Lotto

This doesn't seem that complicated to me. If you're inbounding the ball, then the game was stopped.

Not necessarily. Suppose there is less than a minute remaining in the second half when A1 dunks the ball. The clock stops (in the NCAA) due to the successful try. But the force of the dunk causes it to bounce off another player toward midcourt.

Normally, if the ball bounces a long way away, we'll blow the whistle to stop the game and retrieve the ball. The clock is already stopped in this situation, though, so there's no reason for the whistle. So if the official (out of habit) blows the whistle, is it inadvertent? Do we let the subs in?

I think that the answer was that we do not let the subs in. I'm sure it's one of the NCAA bulletins for the year that the rule was introduced, but I don't have all the old bulletins.

With the women's rule, we don't even have to worry about this scenario.

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Not necessarily. Suppose there is less than a minute remaining in the second half when A1 dunks the ball. The clock stops (in the NCAA) due to the successful try. But the force of the dunk causes it to bounce off another player toward midcourt.

Normally, if the ball bounces a long way away, we'll blow the whistle to stop the game and retrieve the ball. The clock is already stopped in this situation, though, so there's no reason for the whistle. So if the official (out of habit) blows the whistle, is it inadvertent? Do we let the subs in?

I think that the answer was that we do not let the subs in. I'm sure it's one of the NCAA bulletins for the year that the rule was introduced, but I don't have all the old bulletins.

With the women's rule, we don't even have to worry about this scenario.

I agree with your ruling but something just came to mind.....

In your mens scenario the referee blew the whistle on purpose and it was not inadvertent/accident. Can a sub be allowed in with less than 59.9 secs if I blow the whistle on purpose that is not a foul or violation?

Example: the net getting stuck in the rim from a shot or a wet spot that needs to be cleaned up on the floor.

[TravelinMan]

Scrapper....Huh! I meant that for Dogg, sorry

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

First...I ended up with an inadvertant whistle...There was a full court press on and I hear TIMEOUT. I hit the whistle and both coaches are looking at me...I looked at offensive team coach and ask :30 or full? He said, I didn't request TO. I go w/ IW.

Full court press. IW seems to be an advantage for the offensive team. How about enforce the TO?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

In your mens scenario the referee blew the whistle on purpose and it was not inadvertent/accident. Can a sub be allowed in with less than 59.9 secs if I blow the whistle on purpose that is not a foul or violation?

I'm sure that exact question was addressed in an NCAA bulletin, but I don't have those bulletins from that year. Maybe somebody like Mark DeNucci or Nevadaref has them on hand. Unfortunately, there's no case like this in the casebook.