Need some help on a free throw situation.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

...B4 accidentally steps in early. In order to ensure that A1 doesn't get 3 chances for 2 shots, B4 lets A1 release then pulls A1 into the lane. What do we have? By Nevs. interp, we call both violations....on B4 and A1 (since A1 was in the lane before the ball hit), wipe the bucket, probably a foul on B4, and award a substitute throw, .

Boy, the original premise of this thread sure has gone off to La-La Land.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Boy, the original premise of this thread sure has gone off to La-La Land.

Hey, its important to be clear that some rulings are not ALWAYS right. Even if it is not this situation, this is the type of scenario where some officials get into trouble and make poor decisions....by adjudicating the game based on paraphrased rules and treating things that usually apply as something that always applies or by ignoring the spirit of the rule and calling it strictly by the book.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Hey, its important to be clear that some rulings are not ALWAYS right. Even if it is not this situation, this is the type of scenario where some officials get into trouble and make poor decisions....by adjudicating the game based on paraphrased rules and treating things that usually apply as something that always applies or by ignoring the spirit of the rule and calling it strictly by the book.

Camron,
Please tell me if you would count the basket in these two situations.
1. A1 is driving to the basket and is fouled by B1 who pushes him while he is in the act of shooting. The push causes A1 to travel before he releases his try for goal. The attempt is successful.

2. Same play only A1 is near the sideline and the push causes A1 to step OOB prior to the release of the try. The attempt is successful.


I believe that these plays more clearly illustrate the point at hand.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Camron,
Please tell me if you would count the basket in these two situations.
1. A1 is driving to the basket and is fouled by B1 who pushes him while he is in the act of shooting. The push causes A1 to travel before he releases his try for goal. The attempt is successful.

2. Same play only A1 is near the sideline and the push causes A1 to step OOB prior to the release of the try. The attempt is successful.


I believe that these plays more clearly illustrate the point at hand.

Apples and oranges.

In both your plays, A1 violates BEFORE the shot is released...violations that potentially aided A1 in making the shot and ones that may have happened anyway.

In my situation, the shot is away, the FT shooter is not at risk of stepping across the line (and stepping on the FT line is only relevant regarding a possible rebound, not the success of the shot) when a player from B caused A to step on the line.

FWIW, I'm disallowing the shot in your two plays....again...apples and oranges.

Recall this following situation and how it is nearly unanimously called: A1 driving and going up for the shot obviously gets hit across the arm (or gets pushed) by B1. A1 subsequently crashes into B4 (who has LGP). Call: Foul on B1....subsequent contact ignored. We simply consider B1's foul to have caused the subdquent contact and do not penalize A1 at all.

The rules are a framework for typical situations but merely guideline for non-typical situations. When something not anticipated by the rules happens, we've got to uses the intents of the rules to do the right thing.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Apples and oranges.

In both your plays, A1 violates BEFORE the shot is released...violations that potentially aided A1 in making the shot and ones that may have happened anyway.

In my situation, the shot is away, the FT shooter is not at risk of stepping across the line (and stepping on the FT line is only relevant regarding a possible rebound, not the success of the shot) when a player from B caused A to step on the line.

FWIW, I'm disallowing the shot in your two plays....again...apples and oranges.

Recall this following situation and how it is nearly unanimously called: A1 driving and going up for the shot obviously gets hit across the arm (or gets pushed) by B1. A1 subsequently crashes into B4 (who has LGP). Call: Foul on B1....subsequent contact ignored. We simply consider B1's foul to have caused the subdquent contact and do not penalize A1 at all.

The rules are a framework for typical situations but merely guideline for non-typical situations. When something not anticipated by the rules happens, we've got to uses the intents of the rules to do the right thing.

Your framework/guideline concept is nice, but when we have a specific case play that tells us exactly how to handle a situation I believe that we should follow that instead of imposing our personal feelings upon the game.

FALSE DOUBLE FOUL
4.19.9 SITUATION A: A1 leaps high and is fouled by B1 as he/she taps the ball which subsequently goes through A's basket. A1 fouls B2 in returning to the floor. RULING: This is a false double foul. The foul by B1 does not cause the ball to become dead. However, the player-control foul by A1 does cause the ball to become dead and also dictates that no goal can be scored. Since the goal is not scored, A1 is awarded two free throws for the foul by B1. No players are allowed along the lane as Team B will be awarded the ball following the last free throw. If the last throw is successful, the throw-in is from anywhere along the end line. If the last throw is unsuccessful, the throw-in is from a designated spot nearest the foul. (4-1; 4-11; 4-41-1; 6-7-7 Exception c: 6-7-4; 7-5-5)


PS So if something that happens AFTER the release of the ball can't possibly impact the shot, why do we cancel a goal for a PC foul on an airborne shooter? Because the rule says so. Is that more to your apples and oranges liking?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Your framework/guideline concept is nice, but when we have a specific case play that tells us exactly how to handle a situation I believe that we should follow that instead of imposing our personal feelings upon the game.

FALSE DOUBLE FOUL
4.19.9 SITUATION A: A1 leaps high and is fouled by B1 as he/she taps the ball which subsequently goes through A's basket. A1 fouls B2 in returning to the floor. RULING: This is a false double foul. The foul by B1 does not cause the ball to become dead. However, the player-control foul by A1 does cause the ball to become dead and also dictates that no goal can be scored. Since the goal is not scored, A1 is awarded two free throws for the foul by B1. No players are allowed along the lane as Team B will be awarded the ball following the last free throw. If the last throw is successful, the throw-in is from anywhere along the end line. If the last throw is unsuccessful, the throw-in is from a designated spot nearest the foul. (4-1; 4-11; 4-41-1; 6-7-7 Exception c: 6-7-4; 7-5-5)

You show me where it is typically done that way in practice and then I'll consider it. You personal desire to call it by the book in opposition to widely accepted practice (even knowingly against what the book specifically says) suggest that perhaps the letter of the book doesn't alway reveal the intent of the rule....as the first page of the rule book establishes is necessary to apply the rules correctly.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

PS So if something that happens AFTER the release of the ball can't possibly impact the shot, why do we cancel a goal for a PC foul on an airborne shooter? Because the rule says so. Is that more to your apples and oranges liking?

You fail to understand that the PC foul after the shot is a direct result of the path chosen to take the shot itself. Now what if the shooter lands and, in following their shot, shoves someone in the back...we still count the shot if it goes. That is much closer.

The "right" call is not always be found in the book.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The "right" call is not always be found in the book.

Disagree. All games created by humans are defined by the words chosen to describe how to play. By definition the only right call is the one found in the book. Any other call is just a personal opinion. Need I remind you that the NFHS has strongly stated that officials are not to eschew the rules in favor of their personal beliefs?