Need some help on a free throw situation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure it can. If you feel that a defender's actions led to the shooter commiting a violation, only the defender's violation is penalized.

Camron,
As I just posted above, the shooter's violation must also be penalized if the goal is made. You can't count an illegally scored FT. So BadNews is correct that disconcertion doesn't eliminate the requirement that the thrower not cross the line.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Camron,
As I just posted above, the shooter's violation must also be penalized if the goal is made. You can't count an illegally scored FT. So BadNews is correct that disconcertion doesn't eliminate the requirement that the thrower not cross the line.

In general, that would be true....disconcertion, shot, shooter rushes in, made/missed, both violations called.

But if, in a game, I see a defender violate then deliberately do something to draw the shooter into the lane, the only violation I'm going to call is the one on the defender...it is not the spirit or intent of the rule to allow the defender to attempt to get the shooter to violate.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

In general, that would be true....disconcertion, shot, shooter rushes in, made/missed, both violations called.

But if, in a game, I see a defender violate then deliberately do something to draw the shooter into the lane, the only violation I'm going to call is the one on the defender...it is not the spirit or intent of the rule to allow the defender to attempt to get the shooter to violate.

OK, I realize we're in that difficult period where the only hope to work a game is AAU, camps, summer rec leagues and we're a good 3+ full months before scrimmages... but what could a defender possibly do that would draw the shooter into stepping over the line before he releases the ball (NFHS)?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

OK, I realize we're in that difficult period where the only hope to work a game is AAU, camps, summer rec leagues and we're a good 3+ full months before scrimmages... but what could a defender possibly do that would draw the shooter into stepping over the line before he releases the ball (NFHS)?

For once, I must say that you have asked an excellent question, and you even did so without being sanctimonius.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For once, I must say that you have asked an excellent question, and you even did so without being sanctimonius.

Wish I could return the compliment.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sanctimonius.

Do we really need these $10.00 words?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Do we really need these $10.00 words?

Talk to Snaqwells. He has tossed out "conflating" twice in the past four months.

I had to look it up the first time.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Talk to Snaqwells. He has tossed out "conflating" twice in the past four months.

I had to look it up the first time.

Hey, watch it, or I'll start throwing out words like "petulant" or "narcissist."
Here, I'll use it in a sentence.

"Sometimes, xxxxx can be a petulant narcissist."

Hey, maybe M&M can set up a poll to see who xxxxx is.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

OK, I realize we're in that difficult period where the only hope to work a game is AAU, camps, summer rec leagues and we're a good 3+ full months before scrimmages... but what could a defender possibly do that would draw the shooter into stepping over the line before he releases the ball (NFHS)?

I was actually thinking about after the release but before it hits the rim but before the release works too....

Push/Pull the shooter....or fake doing so causing the shooter to step out of the way and into the lane.

(added) Why would someone do this? Probably the same reason Billy Gillespie instructed one of his players to goaltend a FT....in an attempt to get an advantage.

Situation: 10 seconds remaining...A1 on the line for two after being fouled while shooting....and not in the bonus. B4 accidentally steps in early. In order to ensure that A1 doesn't get 3 chances for 2 shots, B4 lets A1 release then pulls A1 into the lane. What do we have? By Nevs. interp, we call both violations....on B4 and A1 (since A1 was in the lane before the ball hit), wipe the bucket, probably a foul on B4, and award a substitute throw, .

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

...B4 accidentally steps in early. In order to ensure that A1 doesn't get 3 chances for 2 shots, B4 lets A1 release then pulls A1 into the lane. What do we have? By Nevs. interp, we call both violations....on B4 and A1 (since A1 was in the lane before the ball hit), wipe the bucket, probably a foul on B4, and award a substitute throw, .

Boy, the original premise of this thread sure has gone off to La-La Land.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Boy, the original premise of this thread sure has gone off to La-La Land.

Hey, its important to be clear that some rulings are not ALWAYS right. Even if it is not this situation, this is the type of scenario where some officials get into trouble and make poor decisions....by adjudicating the game based on paraphrased rules and treating things that usually apply as something that always applies or by ignoring the spirit of the rule and calling it strictly by the book.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Hey, its important to be clear that some rulings are not ALWAYS right. Even if it is not this situation, this is the type of scenario where some officials get into trouble and make poor decisions....by adjudicating the game based on paraphrased rules and treating things that usually apply as something that always applies or by ignoring the spirit of the rule and calling it strictly by the book.

Camron,
Please tell me if you would count the basket in these two situations.
1. A1 is driving to the basket and is fouled by B1 who pushes him while he is in the act of shooting. The push causes A1 to travel before he releases his try for goal. The attempt is successful.

2. Same play only A1 is near the sideline and the push causes A1 to step OOB prior to the release of the try. The attempt is successful.


I believe that these plays more clearly illustrate the point at hand.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Situation: 10 seconds remaining...A1 on the line for two after being fouled while shooting....and not in the bonus. B4 accidentally steps in early. In order to ensure that A1 doesn't get 3 chances for 2 shots, B4 lets A1 release then pulls A1 into the lane. What do we have? By Nevs. interp, we call both violations....on B4 and A1 (since A1 was in the lane before the ball hit), wipe the bucket, probably a foul on B4, and award a substitute throw, .

And Dan says that I come up with some 3rd World plays!

BTW my ruling is a lane violation on B4 as well as an INTENTIONAL PERSONAL FOUL. However, in order to count the FT still must be attempted from behind the line.

Therefore, in this particular instance the FT won't count if the shooter is pulled or pushed over the line, but a substitute throw will be awarded.
If the shooter were pulled six feet into the lane before tossing the ball up and into the basket, there is no way that I could defend scoring it.

EDITED: I changed my mind on this ruling!