LGP on Airborne Shooter

[PSidbury]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

That's the one.

What I was "interpreting", of course, is why the Pogo cartoon used this particular play on words and what that means...

I better stop.

Why did the chicken cross the basketball court?
He heard the ref was blowing fouls.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

MTD, Jr. and I got home about 45 min. ago from officiating in a boys' H.S. team shootout at The Univ. of Findlay and we are now leaving to watch Jr. and Andy play in a baseball game at 6pm. But I just checked my email and received an email from Peter Webb of Maine. Many of you know that Peter is the go to guy for NFHS rulings. I will post the email that I sent him and his reply to me, but I will tell you in advance that he agrees with my ruling in Play D.

MTD, Sr.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

MTD, Jr. and I got home about 45 min. ago from officiating in a boys' H.S. team shootout at The Univ. of Findlay and we are now leaving to watch Jr. and Andy play in a baseball game at 6pm. But I just checked my email and received an email from Peter Webb of Maine. Many of you know that Peter is the go to guy for NFHS rulings. I will post the email that I sent him and his reply to me, but I will tell you in advance that he agrees with my ruling in Play D.

MTD, Sr.

I'm confused, is play D the play that is in question by everyone on this board? I'm under the assumption that everyone agrees with the ruling in Play D. I thought the play that everyone is questioning is the defender moving laterally (side to side) after A1 is airborne, and you calling this a charge. I'm hoping that isn't the case, but like others, I didn't believe you would call that a charge.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

But I just checked my email and received an email from Peter Webb of Maine. Many of you know that Peter is the go to guy for NFHS rulings. I will post the email that I sent him and his reply to me, but I will tell you in advance that he agrees with my ruling in Play D.

Post the e-mail, Mark. This should be interesting....to see how you worded the question. It should have been quite simple..."After a shooter has left his feet, can a defender now move sideways into the path of that airborne shooter?" That's the question that you need to ask him.

Btw, to date, not one responder here has agreed with you. Co-incidence?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Play D: A1 stops his dribble and jumps toward B1 but at an angle that will enable him to go past B1 if B1 either does not move or moves directly backward along A1's path before A1 went airborne. BUT, B1 moves to maintain his legal guarding position against A1. B1 is moving when A1 makes contact with B1's torso. B1 was NOT moving toward A1 when the contact occured. RULING: Based upon the definition of guarding and Plays A, B, and C, the only logical conclusion is a foul by A1.



NFHS R4-S23-A3c: After the initial legal guarding position is obtained the guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

A1 jumped at such an angle that there would have been no contact. B1 moved, not toward A1, yet there was contact. There's a word for this. I know! Impossible.

Had B1's movement been lateral or oblique, there would not have been contact.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Post the e-mail, Mark. This should be interesting....to see how you worded the question. It should have been quite simple..."After a shooter has left his feet, can a defender now move sideways into the path of that airborne shooter?" That's the question that you need to ask him.

Btw, to date, not one responder here has agreed with you. Co-incidence?

JR:

I am not a nameless poster on the NFHS Discussion Forum, I use the same name there as here. Here is the exchange of emails (I have blocked out Peter's email address, but you can contact him through the Maine Prinicipals' Association at http://www.MPA.cc):


P. Webb: Moving to maintian a legal guarding position question.‏
From: Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. ([email protected])
Sent: Sat 6/14/08 11:44 PM
To: Webb, Peter A. ([email protected])


Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Basketball Official
Boys'/Girls' High School Since 1971
Women's College Since 1974

OhioHSAA no.: 104563
MichiganHSAA no.: 322997
USA Basketball Referee (FIBA) no.: 5204
Ohio Association of Basketball Officials
Int'l. Assn. of Approved Bkb. Off., Inc./Lake Erie Dist. Bd. #55
Trumbull Co. Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. Bkb. Off. Assn.: Rules Interpreter & Instructional Chairman (1990-99)


Jun. 14/Sat.(11:44pmEDT), 2008


to: Peter A. Webb
Basketball Commissioner
Maine Principals’ Association

subject: BKB: Moving to maintian a legal guarding position question.


Peter:

A discussion on the NFHS Basketball Discussion Group regarding moving to maintain a legal guarding position. I have written four plays and have given my ruling for each play using the definition of a legal guarding position in NFHS R4-S23. I appreciate it if you would read them and tell me what you think. The key is Play D; I wrote the plays in a particular order so as to build a case for my ruling in Play D.

Play A: A1 dribbles toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. A1, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.

Play B: A1 stops his dribble and jumps directly toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. A1, while airborne, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.

Play C: A1 dribbles toward B1 but changes direction so as to go around B1. B1 moves to maintain his legal guarding position against A1. B1 is moving when A1 makes contact with B1's torso. B1 was NOT moving toward A1 when the contact occurred. RULING: Foul by A1.

Play D: A1 stops his dribble and jumps toward B1 but at an angle that will enable him to go past B1 if B1 either does not move or moves directly backward along A1's path before A1 went airborne.
BUT, B1 moves to maintain his legal guarding position against A1. B1 is moving when A1 makes contact with B1's torso. B1 was NOT moving toward A1 when the contact occurred. RULING: Based upon the definition of guarding and Plays A, B, and C, the only logical conclusion is a foul by A1.

Mark



Re: P. Webb: Moving to maintian a legal guarding position question.‏ From: [email protected] Sent: Tue 6/17/08 11:33 AM To: [email protected]





Hi Mark,

The play situations and rulings that you have put are a good way of teaching/understanding 'guarding-block/charge' as per rules 4.7; 4.23

Rulings are accurate as per rule.


Peter


As one can see, I copied Plays A, B, C, and D verbatim in my email to Peter.

MTD, Sr.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Play D: A1 stops his dribble and jumps toward B1 but at an angle that will enable him to go past B1 if B1 either does not move or moves directly backward along A1's path before A1 went airborne.
BUT, B1 moves to maintain his legal guarding position against A1. B1 is moving when A1 makes contact with B1's torso. B1 was NOT moving toward A1 when the contact occurred. RULING: Based upon the definition of guarding and Plays A, B, and C, the only logical conclusion is a foul by A1.


Rulings are accurate as per rule.

This is simply mind-boggling. This is a block every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Either Peter misunderstood or mis-read the question, or simply didn't take enough time to think about it.

If you move INTO the path of an airborne player and there's contact, block. Period.

[Dan_ref]

So what you & Peter are saying is any defender who establishes LGP can legally move under an airborne player with the ball. And the airborne player is responsible for any subsequent contact.

Sorry Mark, I don't agree. As was posted previously you ignore completely the underlying principle that the airborne player has a right to the spot he's going to land on. This is vital for the safety of the players.

[Jurassic Referee]

Mark, his interpretation is so egregiously wrong that it's absolutely ridiculous.

Again, ask him this:

AFTER AN AIRBORNE PLAYER HAS LEFT HIS FEET, CAN A DEFENDER LEGALLY MOVE LATERALLY OR OBLIQUELY INTO THAT AIRBORNE PLAYER'S PATH?

I await your response to that question. I would have e-mailed him myself but your link doesn't work. I'll try to find another e-mail addy for him. If you can post one, I'll use that.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

This is simply mind-boggling. This is a block every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Either Peter misunderstood or mis-read the question, or simply didn't take enough time to think about it.

If you move INTO the path of an airborne player and there's contact, block. Period.

Unless it's outside of your primary of course...

(sorry couldn't resist)

[Jurassic Referee]

E-mail address for Peter Webb found and e-mail sent. Question asked as same as quoted in my last post. Will report upon receipt of reply.

[Jurassic Referee]

Reply received from Peter Webb- sent to both MTD Sr. and myself. I'll let Mark post it.

[Dan_ref]

Cue theme from Jeopardy

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Cue theme from Jeopardy

The suspense is palpable.

[Dan_ref]

Not only that... you can almost touch it.