LGP on Airborne Shooter

[Kelvin green]

Are we missing Basketball fundamentals here?

Fundamental states that everyone is entitled to a spot on the floor.

The spot is determined at moment offensive player jumps and is entitled to come down

Defender slides laterally and takes spot away

This is a foul. Always has been always will be.

Two playes cannnot occupy the same space at once. The offensive player is occupying it. By the defensive player taking that spot he has displaced the offender from his legally entitled spot...


BLOCK!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lets tweak Play B just a bit:Play B-1: A1 stops his dribble and jumps directly toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. After A1 becomes airborne B1 moves backwards in the same path as A1's leap. A1, while airborne, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.B1 is moving to maintain a LGP against A1. He is NOT moving TOWARD A1 when contact occurs. This is still a foul by A1.MTD, Sr.

Very interesting. I haven't completely processed this yet, but it makes me go "Hmm?". Nice counterpoint MTD, Sr.

This epic saga continues ...

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The specific NFHS (NCAA and FIBA rules agree) rule citations are: [...]
MTD, Sr.

Sorry, FIBA definitely doesn't agree with your interpretation, and I guess that NFHS and NCAA don't either.

With reference to the 2006 edition of FIBA rules:
(1) article 33.3 defines LGP;
(2) article 33.4 defines legal defense on a player who controls the ball;
(3) article 33.6 talks about a player who is in the air.

It's pretty clear from 33.6 that an opponent is not allowed to move into the path of an airborne player, even if this could be considered a legal movement under article 33.4:

An opponent may not move into the path of a player after that player has jumped into the air.

The rule makes no distinction between offense and defense in the case of an airborne player.

Ciao

[BillyMac]

Is this relevant?

10-6-3-Note: When a guard moves into the path of a dribbler and contact occurs, either player may be responsible for the contact, but the greater responsibility is that of the dribbler if the guard conforms to the following principles, which officials use in reaching a decision. The guard is assumed to have obtained a guarding position if he/she is in the dribbler's path facing him/her. If he/she jumps into position, both feet must return to the floor after the jump before he/she has obtained a guarding position. No specific stance or distance is required. It is assumed the guard may shift to maintain his/her position in the path of the dribbler, provided he/she does not charge into the dribbler nor otherwise cause contact, as outlined in 10-6-2. The responsibility of the dribbler for contact is not shifted merely because the guard turns or ducks to absorb shock when contact by the dribbler is imminent. The guard may not cause contact by moving under or in front of a passer or thrower after he or she is in the air with both feet off the floor.

This thread jumped from the NFHS basketball forum to the Official Forum. Where will it show up next? This reminds me of the final scenes in the movie "Blazing Saddles", the fight between the townsfolk and the gunfighters is such that it literally breaks the fourth wall; the fight spills out from the film lot in the Warner Bros. Studios into a neighboring musical set, then the studio commissary where a pie fight ensues, and finally pouring out into the surrounding streets.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is this relevant?

10-6-3-Note: The guard may not cause contact by moving under or in front of a passer or thrower AFTER he or she is in the air with both feet off the floor.

That's the relevant part. It's self-explanatory, same as the NFHS and NCAA case plays.

A defender can't re-position himself in front of an offensive player with the ball after that player has left his feet.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Very interesting. I haven't completely processed this yet, but it makes me go "Hmm?". Nice counterpoint MTD, Sr.

This epic saga continues ...

Billy, if a defender moves backward, they still remain in the exact same path that the shooter established when that shooter jumped. The defender is NOT moving INTO the path of the shooter.

Apples and oranges....and irrelevant to the play being discussed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Woody:

Read Articles 3 and 4 of NFHS R4-S23. Nothing in those two articles prohibits a defender, B1, from moving to maintain a legal guarding position against an airborne player, A1, as long as the B1's LGP was obtained before A1 became airborne and if contact occurs, B1 was not moving toward A1 when contacts occur.

Lets see what type of foul occurs when B1 has obtained/established a legal guarding position against A1 (who has player control of the ball) and A1 dribbles the ball directly toward B1.

Play D: A1 stops his dribble and jumps toward B1 but at an angle that will enable him to go past B1 if B1 either does not move or moves directly backward along A1's path before A1 went airborne. BUT, B1 moves to maintain his legal guarding position against A1. B1 is moving when A1 makes contact with B1's torso. B1 was NOT moving toward A1 when the contact occured. RULING: Based upon the definition of guarding and Plays A, B, and C, the only logical conclusion is a foul by A1.

Everybody is applying a rule (NFHS R4-S23-A5) that applies to a defensive player who has NOT obtained a LGP to a play where the defensive player has ALREADY obtained a LGP.

Cutting away the extraneous bafflegab, there's exactly what you can't seem to understand. The NFHS and NCAA case plays cited, plus rule 10.6.3NOTE that Billy dug up and posted, all say that the defender doesn't maintain a legal guarding position if he moves laterally or obliquely into the path of an airborne shooter after that shooter has left his feet. It's impossible.

And regarding your play D(which pretty much says it all), both the NFHS and the NCAA have issued case book plays stating that in a play like that, the foul is to be charged to the defender. It is hardly a "logical conclusion" for you to try and claim something that is diametrically opposite to the written rulings.

What you fail to understand is that a defender with LGP loses that LGP if he moves laterally/obliquely into the path of an airborne shooter if the defender does move AFTER the airborne shooter left his feet.

A defender can't legally jump INTO the path of an airborne shooter AFTER the shooter has left his feet. That's a basic rules concept, Mark.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lets tweak Play B just a bit:

Play B-1: A1 stops his dribble and jumps directly toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. After A1 becomes airborne B1 moves backwards in the same path as A1's leap. A1, while airborne, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.

B1 is moving to maintain a LGP against A1. He is NOT moving TOWARD A1 when contact occurs. This is still a foul by A1.

MTD, Sr.

True, however, in this situation B1 is absorbing the contact by A1 this is nothing wrong there.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lets tweak Play B just a bit:

Play B-1: A1 stops his dribble and jumps directly toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. After A1 becomes airborne B1 moves backwards in the same path as A1's leap. A1, while airborne, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.

B1 is moving to maintain a LGP against A1. He is NOT moving TOWARD A1 when contact occurs. This is still a foul by A1.

MTD, Sr.

Right, but here B1 is not moving INTO A1's path. Apples and oranges.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

Fundamental states that everyone is entitled to a spot on the floor.

Not Billy Packer!

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lets tweak Play B just a bit:

Doesn't really matter how much tweaking you do on these plays - the rules are clear. Once the shooter goes airborne, you can't move underneath him/her or into his/her landing area. Well, you can, but it's gonna be a block called on you.

Kinda wish this one had stayed over on the NFHS forum...it was silly there and is silly here.

[Camron Rust]

BLOCK!

The only thing the defender can do after a shooter has jumped is jump straight up or move in such a way that it doesn't improve their position. I'd let B1 move sideways ONLY if B1 was directly in A1's path already and the sideways movement was either neutral or was taking B1 out of A1's path.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Tony:

I am suprised at your language.

Is "suprised" Buckeye for "surprised?"

I'm surprised, no, amazed that at this poor, weak, lame argument you offering.

[PSidbury]

Can't help but jump in here
(and hopefully the defenders will maintain their legal guarding positions... ),

but, when a post starts to disintigrate into a "how dare you take offense to my commentary and interpretation"... in my opinion... it becomes a peanut gallery mosh pit.

And... NO... I am not directing this sarcastic reply at anyone specific.
I am just amazed at the direction "too many" posts seem to take.

I really do love you guys... because once you filter away all the silt and mud, I do on occasion find that special nugget of officiating knowledge and wisdom.

Thanks !
Paul

[lpneck]

MTD, to consider how far out there you are, I would present evidence A, which is that I agree completely with JR, and that, quite frankly, doesn't happen very often. The wording in the rulebook in this situation is fine and is clear to me.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What you fail to understand is that a defender with LGP loses that LGP if he moves laterally/obliquely into the path of an airborne shooter if the defender does move AFTER the airborne shooter left his feet.

This is exactly right. It's a geometry problem. If a shooter goes airborne, the only way that LGP remains is if the defensive player moves parallel to the offensive player- and if that happens, there can't be any contact.

This is crude, but in the following pictures X is the offensive player and O is the defensive player. The bold letter is where they begin and the non-bold letter is where they end up after the offensive player is airborne.

.....................O
.....................X
.........O
.........X

Here, legal guarding position is maintained, but no contact is going to occur anyway because they are moving parallel to each other as both are moving obliquely.


.....................X
.........O..........O
.........X

Here, the defender has moved INTO the path of the airborne shooter by moving laterally while the offensive player moved obliquely. The defender no longer has legal guarding position when this contact occurs, and a foul should be called on the defensive player.