Part II: Defender drops on hands and knees...

[PSidbury]

Part I post seemed to get a little far afield from the intial intent.

Forget about displacement or offensive foul calling or non-calling and please allow the intent and focus of this post be about the legality of the B-player dropping to his hands and knees.

The ball goes in to the A-forward on the block and he begins to dribble backwards toward the goal.
However… the B-defender who is between A-player and goal immediately drops to his hands and knees (within his space) and… you guessed it… the A-player backs-up and tumbles over B-player.

1) What is the NFHS ruling on this and what would you guys call and on whom?

2) The assumption is that the B-player has "intentionally" fallen to his hands and knees in order to "stop" the A-player, however what if the B-player falls to his hands and knees as a result of feigning injury of some kind? How would we know the difference?

Thanks,
Paul

[rockyroad]

If you think the defender is doing it deliberately to cause the offensive player to trip over him/her, then you are within the rules to call a block, an intentional foul, possibly even an unsporting Technical (not so sure about that one, but you could probably pull it off).

However, in the original thread, based on what you yourself posted, there should have been some - at least one - PC fouls called on the offensive post for "backing down" the defender...then this situation would never have come up.

[Mark Padgett]

Somehow, I don't think being on your hands and knees qualifies as being in "legal guarding position". What do you guys think?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Somehow, I don't think being on your hands and knees qualifies as being in "legal guarding position". What do you guys think?

I agree being on your hands and knees is not legal guarding position. Hmm, but what if the defender started with legal guarding position (facing the opponent, both feet on the ground); don't the rules say they can move after obtaining legal guarding position? (I'm just trying to channel Nevada.)

But what would be your call if the defender B1 was on the ground, perhaps diving for a loose ball, and A1 picks up the ball, then trips over B1? Legal guarding position would have no bearing on this call, correct?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Somehow, I don't think being on your hands and knees qualifies as being in "legal guarding position". What do you guys think?

I think a legal guarding position isn't required for a stationary player.
Time and distance aren't required for a player guarding the ball handler.

There's nothing inherently illegal about being on his hands and knees and then being contacted by a moving player with the ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by PSidbury

The assumption is that the B-player has "intentionally" fallen to his hands and knees in order to "stop" the A-player, however what if the B-player falls to his hands and knees as a result of feigning injury of some kind? How would we know the difference?

1. If you think the player might actually be injured, stop play and have him replaced. Beckon the coach and make him choose whether or not to request a TO.
2. If you think the player is "feigning" injury. Stop play and have him replaced. Beckon the player and, well, you get the point. Treat it like a real injury even if you think it's not.
3. If you're at all in doubt, at least stop play and ask him if he's ok. He'll either be grateful or embarrassed. Either way, you've done your job.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think a legal guarding position isn't required for a stationary player.
Time and distance aren't required for a player guarding the ball handler.

There's nothing inherently illegal about being on his hands and knees and then being contacted by a moving player with the ball.

I agree; it would be a different matter if B1 were to roll or slide into the back of A1.

(I'm getting this strong sense of deja 'vu....)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I agree; it would be a different matter if B1 were to roll or slide into the back of A1.

(I'm getting this strong sense of deja 'vu....)

Yeah, me too.

[PSidbury]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

However, in the original thread...

Uh... no "forceful" backing-down in this scenario.

Déjà vu all over again, indeed

Thanks,
Paul

[Jurassic Referee]

As I posted in t'other thread.....

NFHS rule 10-6-1 is close enough for me, and also meets the purpose and intent of the playing rules imho.

NFHS rule 10-6-1--"A player shall not hold, push, charge, TRIP or impede the progress of an opponent by...bending his/her body into other than a normal position, nor use any rough tactics."

That general rules statement covers the situation being discussed. The defender is bending their body into a position that could hardly be called "normal" on a basketball court, and tripping an opponent can also easily be labeled "rough tactics".

Soooooo.......imo it can be justified to call it an intentional personal foul.

It's completely different than a player slipping and falling to the court, and then having an opponent trip over them. The first act was done to deliberately gain an unfair advantage not intended under the purpose and intent of the rules. The second was done accidentally.

Again, jmho.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by PSidbury

Déjà vu all over again, indeed

Have you got any response to the almost unanimous answers that you received in the other thread? You know, where everybody told you that it was completely ridiculous NOT to call an immediate player control foul on a post player with the ball dislodging a defender with a legal stance. Have you changed your mind on what the right call should have been under those circumstances?

Just kinda wondering....because I haven't seen any response from you yet to the answers that you received in the other thread.

[PSidbury]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Just kinda wondering....because I haven't seen any response from you yet to the answers that you received in the other thread.

This was my first reply within that thread...

Originally Posted by PSidbury

Regardless... I agree, it is unsportsmanlike and not a basketball move... and the forceful displacement should have been cleaned-up early on.

Always learning...

Thanks

I will say it again:
"it is unsportsmanlike and not a basketball move... and the forceful displacement should have been cleaned-up early on."

And even one more time, for those in the back:
"it is unsportsmanlike and not a basketball move... and the forceful displacement should have been cleaned-up early on."

However, my intent in these posts was always about focusing on the legality of the defender dropping to his hands and knees.

So, I started a new thread to focus on what really was my question, (taking the backing-down out of the equation), and less on all this peanut gallery "Why did you allow the milk to be spilled?" rhetoric.

Sheesh.

Thanks,
Paul

Originally Posted by PSidbury

However, my intent in these posts was always about focusing on the legality of the defender dropping to his hands and knees.

So, I started a new thread to focus on what really was my question, (taking the backing-down out of the equation), and less on all this peanut gallery "Why did you allow the milk to be spilled?" rhetoric.

Sheesh.

Thanks,
Paul

Hey Paul, I understand your frustration BUT you've been on the board for over half a year now. That being said, you should know how it goes 'round here... especially during the off-season when things are slower. With the great knowledge that one can obtain here also comes inside jokes, smart a$$ comments, topic switching, etc. I had trouble recognizing that fact when I first joined, but dealing with the guys/gals here helps one develop the thick-skinned quality that all great officials need.
Basically, nobody is forcing you to post on this "open to the public" forum, if you want direct answers w/out the hoopla... I suggest that you find a mentor!

[Camron Rust]

Regarding a defender dropping to knees/hands with the intent of letting the oppoent trip over them, I think you have 4 legitimate options....all against the defender:

1. personal foul (block)
2. intentional personal foul
3. T for unsportsmanlike conduct
4. flagrant T

Which get's called really depends on the game. If it is clearly an act intended to harm the opponent...with our without contact...#4. If there is tension and I feel many players are on edge for whatever reason but absent intent to harm, #3. Put the hammer down and stop the silliness right there. If the game has been completely uneventful and it just seems like a goofy play out of nowhere, #1.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

NFHS rule 10-6-1--"A player shall not hold, push, charge, TRIP or impede the progress of an opponent by...bending his/her body into other than a normal position, nor use any rough tactics." That general rules statement covers the situation being discussed. The defender is bending their body into a position that could hardly be called "normal" on a basketball court, and tripping an opponent can also easily be labeled "rough tactics".

Simple. To the point. Proper citation.

That's, that's, that's all folks.