Good basketball - 1987

[jd6stop]

I just watched a good game of basketball last night on ESPN classics. NBA finals game 4, Lakers over Celtics.
It was good because of the lack of physical play and actually had basketball players on the court who could shoot well and knew what a pivot foot was. Even the refs called fouls and travelling. The stuff we see today is our fault - refs - with no sense of the game letting everything get out of control. Where did we go wrong?

[Scrapper1]

JD, welcome to the forum. Glad you've found us. There's a lot of useful information exchanged here. Having said that, I'm going to take exception with a couple things in your post.

Originally Posted by jd6stop

I just watched a good game of basketball last night on ESPN classics. NBA finals game 4, Lakers over Celtics.
It was good because of the lack of physical play

Did you see the clothesline foul against the Laker player (I forget who it was, but I don't think it was Magic) on the fast break in that game? Did you see Kareem elbow Bird in the face after the whistle? Did you see Cooper get hammered on a drive straight down the middle of the lane with no call? That series, and the NBA in general, had LOTS of physical play. Did you see Parish literally beat down Laimbeer at the Garden during the Eastern Conference Finals? There was no call from the officials. There was no suspension from the league. There wasn't even a fine. Not only was the physical play there, it was an accepted part of the game.

I will grant you that the physical play became worse as coaches started using it as a tactic, rather than just playing the game. But that was actually pretty commonplace with Detroit's "Bad Boys".

I agree with you that in general, there was better shooting and passing ability in the glory days of Magic, Larry and Michael. The pace of the game was more fun to watch with Magic running Showtime. But to say that there wasn't any physical play, even back then, is "misremembering".

Even the refs called fouls and travelling. The stuff we see today is our fault - refs - with no sense of the game letting everything get out of control. Where did we go wrong?

The state of the NBA game is "our fault"? I can't remember the last time I reffed an NBA game.

Some of that stuff does filter down to games that I (we) do work. But part of it happens because that's just the style of play now. We keep calling fouls, but they keep playing physically. And part of it happens because the game is faster now (at the high school and college level). Some of the traveling calls happen so quickly that it's hard to know which was the pivot foot.

I'm not sure that "where did we go wrong" is the right question to ask. I think we are trying our best to do, at the high school and college level, what our rulemakers and supervisors are asking us to do. (Which, come to think of it, is exactly what the NBA refs are trying to do.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Having said that, I'm going to take exception with a couple things in your post.

1) That series, and the NBA in general, had LOTS of physical play. Not only was the physical play there, it was an accepted part of the game.

2) Some of that stuff does filter down to games that I (we) do work. But part of it happens because that's just the style of play now.

And I'm going to take exception with a couple of things in your post.

1) I watched the same game yesterday on ESPN. I also watched Game 7 from the same series. Yes, there was physical play. But(big "but") the physical play was comprised of individual plays in which fouls were usually called. And the physical play of that era was completely different than today's physical play. What wasn't present back then was:
a) defenders bumping the dribbler all over the court.
b) defenders pushing cutters out of their paths.
c) hands, forearms and elbows not being used continuously by defenders to push offensive players out of position.
d) allowing the defenders double-teaming to whack the hell out of the offensive player with no call as long as the ball wasn't lost.
e) allowing contact on the shooter as long as he could get a shot off.
If you watch the defense, as I was doing, there wasn't really anything extra to call because they weren't bodying offensive players all over the court. Hands, arms and forearms were usually kept off of offensive players. Compared to today's NBA, the contact out there could almost be called minimal.

2) I agree that you can't really blame the officials per se, but the amount of contact that we, as officials, now allow is sureasheck one helluva lot different than 20 years ago. And yes, that's because the game has changed. However, that still doesn't mean that it's changed for the better. If it was, we wouldn't be seeing POE's issued every year at the high school and college level, pleading with official's to cut down the contact and rough play being allowed. One of the biggest thing that I've noticed from then to now is the amount of contact that we now routinely let go. What is accepted now wasn't acceptable back then. In those NBA games(and college games of that era also), if a defender whacked a shooter, they called the foul. Period. If a player got whacked on a double-team, they called the foul. Period. The concept of having a "patient" whistle on ALL plays, and not calling a foul if the ball didn't come loose just didn't exist.

It probably comes down to which style of play that each individual prefers to watch. I prefer the old style with less contact and more skill. Others prefer today's game. Who's right? Both of us. Ultimately you vote with your channel changer anyway.

Jmo.

[Cajun Reff]

You guys are mixing up some games here.

Game 4 of the 1984 NBA Finals in LA is when McHale clotheslined Rambis and Kareem elbowed Bird (reffs were Darrell Garretson and Jess Kersey)

Game 4 of the 1987 NBA Finals in Boston is when Magic made the baby hook across the lane over McHale and Bird missed the 3ptr at the buzzer in front of the Lakers bench (reffs were Earl Strom and Hugh Evans)

and all three Lakers/Celtics Finals in the 80s were physically brutal

[JugglingReferee]

I loved all those classic Celtics/Lakers bouts. I was a young'un and had a subscription to Basketball Digest. Good times! McHale had the weirdest arms - they were ridiculously long. Bird actually looked like a bird. Ainge hit 3s like they were going out of style. Parish had that look that told you it didn't matter how you defended him. Imagine him schooling you and then doing the Mutumbo finger-shake? HAHA And Tiny Archibald. Proof that the little guys can raise the roof.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Cajun Reff

You guys are mixing up some games here.

You're right, and I knew that it didn't seem quite right when I typed it, but I couldn't figure out why. Thanks for fixing it.

[JRutledge]

I think people have revisionist history or do not know what happen back in the 80s because they were not old enough. The reason there were rules for coming off the bench for fighting is because in the 80s and 90s it was not uncommon to have a big fight and have benches clear. So if someone gave a cheap shot, then the retaliation was acceptable. Heck I live in Chicago where Norm Van Lear is on TV and Radio all the time. Van Lear played for the Bulls in the 70s with Jerry Sloan (Current coach of the Utah Jazz) in the back court and Van Lear advocates putting people in the 3rd row all the time if they continue to score at the basket easily.

I think today there is more emphasis on defense and contesting shots. Now that results in more contact and more physical play where maybe 20 years ago you did not have one. That does not mean that things were not physical or much dirtier than the game is today.

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I Van Lear played for the Bulls in the 70s with Jerry Sloan

My favorite backcourt of all time. And Sloan is my favorite player of all time. George Mikan is second and Clyde Drexler third.

Of course, the greatest official in the history of the world is Earl Strom.

[Cajun Reff]

earl strom was the alternate official for game 4 of the 1984 nba finals

he was sitting at the table in pretty red satin reff jacket while garretson and kersey tried to figure out what the hell to do after mchale clotheslined rambis and both benches cleared.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by jd6stop

I just watched a good game of basketball last night on ESPN classics. NBA finals game 4, Lakers over Celtics.
It was good because of the lack of physical play and actually had basketball players on the court who could shoot well and knew what a pivot foot was. Even the refs called fouls and travelling. The stuff we see today is our fault - refs - with no sense of the game letting everything get out of control. Where did we go wrong?

Well, for one thing, the players stopped wearing real shorts.

[jd6stop]

Thanks guys! It's good to be back. I've been on several years ago at work (yeah I was cheating my boss) but lost access and my password and just got back online at home recently. I learned a lot chatting in here back then and hope to learn more in here now. Well, the game is on so I'm going to catch up on some "new philosophy" techniques to sharpen my game with.