Good One

[John Crow]

Heard this from a coach last summer. There are a few seconds left in the game. Team A is down by 2 points. A1 gets pocession under his own basket and throws the ball the length of the court. It bounces high outside the 3 point line and goes thru the hoop. The buzzr sounds. Is it a 2 or 3 pointer? It bounces - the buzzer sounds - and it goes thru the hoop. Is it good? I had to study the definition of a "Try" to get my answer. Didn't know at first.

[JC]

If the buzzer sounds before the ball enters the basket, no points are scored. (The try was over when the ball hit the floor, so the period is over when the buzzer sounds).

If the buzzer sounds after the ball enters the basket, 2 points are scored for A. The ball entered before time expired, so the ball is live and 2 points are scored. Not 3, because the 3 point try ended when it was obviously not successful (hitting the floor would be my first clue it wasn't successful).

J.C.

[Rusty Gilbert]

quote:

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Originally posted by John Crow:
A1 gets pocession under his own basket and throws the ball the length of the court. It bounces high outside the 3 point line and goes thru the hoop. The buzzr sounds. Is it a 2 or 3 pointer? It bounces - the buzzer sounds - and it goes thru the hoop. Is it good?

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Your question is posed 2 ways. In both ways, the "try" (throw from beneath the basket the length of the court) ended when the ball touched the floor (NFHS 4.40.4).

The first way sounds like the ball goes through the basket BEFORE the buzzer sounds.

If the buzzer had not sounded prior to the ball entering the basket, it would have counted only 2 points since it was not a "try from beyond the three-point line." However, it would have been a live ball going through the basket; therefore, score 2 points for the team into whose basket the ball enters.

In the second way, you say that it bounces, the buzzer sounds, and then it goes through the basket.

In this situation, there is NO score. Since the ball was no longer in flight on a try for a field goal, the ball became dead immediately when the buzzer for the end of the period sounded (NFHS 6.7.6).

I can see where the coach thought of the play as an interesting conversation piece.

[Mark Padgett]

JC is exactly right. I posted a similar incident quite a while ago. I had a game where A1, standing in his backcourt, heaved the ball toward his basket. The ball hit the floor at about his free throw line, bounced up, then hit the backboard and went in. The final horn sounded after the ball had hit the floor but before it went in. Coach A wanted a three, coach B screamed it was only a two, and I calmly explained to both of them that it was a zero. Only coach B was placated.

BTW, team A was behind by three at the time!

[John Crow]

Wow! That was quite a call. The key point is that a try ends when it hits the floor. The definition of a three ponter says that it has to be a try. If I understand correctly, A1 and A2 are both behind the 3 point line. A1 throws a pass to A2 that deflects off his head into the hoop. Weird play but it only counts as 2, correct?

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Padgett:
JC is exactly right. I posted a similar incident quite a while ago. I had a game where A1, standing in his backcourt, heaved the ball toward his basket. The ball hit the floor at about his free throw line, bounced up, then hit the backboard and went in. The final horn sounded after the ball had hit the floor but before it went in. Coach A wanted a three, coach B screamed it was only a two, and I calmly explained to both of them that it was a zero. Only coach B was placated.

BTW, team A was behind by three at the time!

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[Camron Rust]

Consider this other similar scenario:

A1, who is short, shoots from behind the 3 point line. A2, who is tall and just inside the 3-point line and thinking it was a pass to him, reaches up and touches the ball on its way to the basket. The ball goes in.

What do you have? 2 or 3?

Is there any difference if the touching were before or after the horn?

Would anything change if it were B2 instead of A2?

[Brian Watson]

A2’s last position on the court is inside the arc, and presumably so is B2, the bucket is a 2. With B2 you have the whole issue of an opponent putting the ball into the wrong basket. I think we established this can not be considered a try, so the bucket from B2 would be 2 no matter where his last position is.

As with anything if A2s’ touch is before, give him the bucket, after the horn and it is a dead ball. B2 is a little sticky and leads me to the first of some better questions.

One, B2 goes to block the three by A2 and gets a little piece of it. Do we still count this as a three? If we go by the assumption that an opposing player cannot make a legal try or tip at the opponents basket, shouldn’t this be only a two? I know I would get run off the court if I ruled that way, but technically should it not be a two? That is why on the horn example, I think if B2 touches the ball before the horn, it is a dead ball (no try or tap) when the horn goes off, but I am not going to make that call.

Two, what if A2 is fouled as the ball is going off his head. This clearly is not a tap or try, so what would the call be? Do you count the hoop and give him one, or waive it off and resume play after the personal.

[Todd VandenAkker]

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Watson:
With B2 you have the whole issue of an opponent putting the ball into the wrong basket. I think we established this can not be considered a try, so the bucket from B2 would be 2 no matter where his last position is. B2 is a little sticky and leads me to the first of some better questions.

One, B2 goes to block the three by A2 and gets a little piece of it. Do we still count this as a three? If we go by the assumption that an opposing player cannot make a legal try or tip at the opponents basket, shouldn’t this be only a two?

Two, what if A2 is fouled as the ball is going off his head. This clearly is not a tap or try, so what would the call be? Do you count the hoop and give him one, or waive it off and resume play after the personal.

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Not to worry: If B partially blocks the shot, it is STILL a shot by A and counts 3 points if it originated behind the arc. Different, though, if it was A's teammate that deflected the ball from within the arc--2 points.

If A2 is fouled after the ball bounces off his head and before the ball goes through the hoop, the ball becomes immediately dead and does not score points. Report the foul, and proceed accordingly.

[Camron Rust]

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Watson:
A2?s last position on the court is inside the arc, and presumably so is B2, the bucket is a 2.

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Is it. Did A2 have possession/control? Or was A1's shot still in progress. I suggest that it is a 3. Touching a ball in flight does not end a try unless it is goaltending.

quote:

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With B2 you have the whole issue of an opponent putting the ball into the wrong basket. I think we established this can not be considered a try, so the bucket from B2 would be 2 no matter where his last position is.

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This is no different that a partially blocked shot that still goes in. Score 3.

quote:

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As with anything if A2's touch is before, give him the bucket, after the horn and it is a dead ball. B2 is a little sticky and leads me to the first of some better questions.

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Score the 3. The try by A1 has not ended.

quote:

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One, B2 goes to block the three by A2 and gets a little piece of it. Do we still count this as a three? If we go by the assumption that an opposing player cannot make a legal try or tip at the opponents basket, shouldn?t this be only a two? I know I would get run off the court if I ruled that way, but technically should it not be a two? That is why on the horn example, I think if B2 touches the ball before the horn, it is a dead ball (no try or tap) when the horn goes off, but I am not going to make that call.

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Good. The point I am bringing up is that another player touching a try does not end the try. Other factors determine that.

quote:

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Two, what if A2 is fouled as the ball is going off his head. This clearly is not a tap or try, so what would the call be? Do you count the hoop and give him one, or waive it off and resume play after the personal.

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Yes. Waive it off, and resuse as a common foul.



[This message has been edited by Camron Rust (edited May 24, 2000).]

[Duck1]

Okay, I got a strange one. A1 controls the opening tip and then makes a basket on the B1 goal from behind the arc. How many points is team B given? How many laps does he run in practice the next day?

- Duck

[Richard Ogg]

quote:

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Originally posted by Duck1:
Okay, I got a strange one. A1 controls the opening tip and then makes a basket on the B1 goal from behind the arc. How many points is team B given? How many laps does he run in practice the next day?

- Duck

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I'm not even going to guess on the number of laps, but maybe I can reduce it 10%.

There is a provision at the beginning of the game that would cause you to award 3 points to team A. If a team shoots at the wrong hoop, while confused, and the other team makes an effort to defend the play (obviously also confused), then you have the option of stopping the game, awarding the points according to which team did the shooting, re-instructing the players on the direction they should be going, and continuing from there. However, if the defense recognizes the mistake and makes no attempt to defend the shot, the points are awarded according to the basket.

So, blow the clock dead, and make your decision. Stand tall, explain it twice to each coach, and go from there. Either 3 points for team A or 2 points for team B. Your explanation sells your credibility.


[This message has been edited by Richard Ogg (edited May 25, 2000).]

[Todd VandenAkker]

Boy, Richard, I gotta admit that I've never read that "provision" anywhere. If the players/jumpers line up facing the wrong direction, then you would allow the basket for team A and quickly "re-set" the teams so they go the right way. That was the officials' mistake. But if they are facing correctly for the initial jump ball, then you stick with the baskets as assigned. It makes no difference, to my knowledge, whether team B (out of confusion by what player A1 is doing and uncertainty about who will get the points) tries to defend the "shot" by A1. Either way, the score counts for team B (2 points only) because it went in their basket. It's no different, really, than when after receiving an in-bounds throw under team B's basket, A2 gets confused and quickly puts the ball in B's basket--that was the player's mistake, not the refs' mistake.

[This message has been edited by Todd VandenAkker (edited May 26, 2000).]

[Richard Ogg]

Todd, a quick few minutes in the rule book and case manual and I agree with you -- the Ref must be confused as well, allowing the players to line up the wrong way. (I like these boards -- it embeds stuff in my head.)

My only guess at this point is that at an association meeting we talked about the scenario, and maybe it was suggested that if all 10 players were confused, maybe the Ref didn't do his/her job of making sure everything was straight. Thus the provision of 4-5-4 would be applied.

Thanks for the comment.