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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 10:19am
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How to say no

All right, I have a bit of an issue with a camp and I thought I'd check with some of you that have been around a while longer to get your take. I have posted on the forum for quite some time under another username, but I went a little more anonymous to ask some questions as I know others on the forum are from my area.

I work high school and JUCO women. I have attended a camp put on by my JUCO assignor for the past 5 or 6 years. I've learned a lot at the camp and I did get hired in the league for the past 2 seasons, I was even suprised by being selected to work a playoff game for the JUCO league this season. The dilemma I have is that the camp has the same evaluators and speakers every year. I have worked actual games with many of the evaluators and the others have seen me work at the camp. My standard evaluation is, "you do a nice job, keep it up." I am attending a couple of new camps this season to get better, but I just don't feel that I'm getting much out of this particular camp anymore and I was thinking about not attending this year. Someone from the camp contacted me recently asking if I was attending and indicated that they want to see me there. I am going, but how do I say no next year? I don't want to portray the image that I think I've "arrived" and don't need to work to get better, but I feel that my time and resources would be better spent with evaluators that do not know me as well. Anyone been through something similar? How did you handle it?
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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 10:28am
CLH CLH is offline
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I understand your concern man, because it's the same one I have. Unfortunately, some supervisors just have a thing about seeing you at THEIR camps. It doesn't matter to them about the other bigger and better camps you have attended, its not THEIRS. So, you're hands are kinda tied, if you don't go, there's a good chance you might not have a job. If you do, you feel like you've wasted money. The good thing about our game, is not matter what, you learn something ever time you work. There are alot of catch 22 situations in our profession. Only thing I can say, is keep attending your supervisors camp until you have moved on to better leagues, but never forget where you came from.

I know its probably not what you want to hear. Private me if you wanna talk more.

CH
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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 10:34am
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Thanks for the thoughts CLH, I agree with everything you say. I am just planning on continuing to go, but if I could find a good way to bow out, I would. I get the feeling I'm being asked to go so that there are enough officials to work the games rather than because I need to be looked at, but I very well could be mistaken.
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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 10:42am
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Keep going, keep working your rear off and, with luck, in a few years, you'll be asked to be one of the evaluators at said camp.
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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 10:45am
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Put yourself in the assignor's shoes for a moment. Their job depends on putting together a roster of officials that will do the best possible job for the conference. Given the fact that rules and mechanics change every year, how do they know you are getting and understanding the changes? How do they know you haven't gained 30 pounds in the off-season? Don't they have a responsibilty to personally know that the officials they are putting on the court can do the job?

Some people think of camps as the "initial" job interview, and once they're on staff, they're in. Many assignors consider their camps as an interview for each season's roster.

Something to consider.
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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 11:44am
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Originally Posted by socalreff
The problem is that most of them are more interested in filling their pockets than filling slots.
Wow...now there's a sweeping generalization for you. And one that I completely disagree with. Those assignors jobs depend on who they put on the floor each season...they have the "right" (for lack of a better word) to expect you to prove yourself each season.

Having said that, I find it hard to believe that a JuCo assignor wouldn't realize that going to a "higher level" camp is a pretty good thing and accept that as their proof that you are working on your game.

And for doubleringer - I found myself in a similiar situation several years ago. When the assignor (who I get along with sooooo well) called me and asked why I wasn't signed up for the camp, I pulled out my notes from the previous summer's camp and read back to her the comments her evaluators gave me. Things like "Why the f--- are you here? There's nothing we can teach you." And "Why are you wasting your time coming here again? You need to go to a different camp." Pretty much ended the conversation right then and there. And yes, I'm still on the roster - or at least was. We'll see come next August!
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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 11:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff
The problem is that most of them are more interested in filling their pockets than filling slots.
How often do you have to duck while riding your high horse?
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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 11:58am
Tio Tio is offline
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I would agree with what has been posted by the other users, but would add the following. I think you really have to be careful about how you handle this. On one hand, you don't want the assigner to write you off or reduce your schedule. On the other, it is good to get input from fresh eyes. I would solicit feedback from the veteran officials in the group. Hopefully, there are some you trust that would give you their honest opinion on your summer plans. It might be worth only attending the camp for a day or two so at least you are getting in front of the assigner. Another possibility is to see if the assigner attends other camps in the area as an observer or clinician. Unfortunately, most assigners make you play the game of paying to go to their camps.

Good luck.
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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 12:15pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells
How often do you have to duck while riding your high horse?
That's no way to talk to a denizen of The Mythical And Magical Kingdom Of College And Above.

You apologize right now, Mister.
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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 12:23pm
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
You apologize right now, Mister.
I won't do it. You can't make me, not even with an army of squirrels.
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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 12:29pm
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I agree with what I've heard here. I know I have to go do my song and dance to keep working. I'm just a little frustrated that I'm put in a position where I really can't say no. I could be working some spring baseball to help me get ready for the regular season. I'm newer to baseball and could use the work (not to mention making money instead of spending it). Anyway, thanks for the thoughts. It is always interesting to hear everyone's opinions.
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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 01:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleringer
I agree with what I've heard here. I know I have to go do my song and dance to keep working. I'm just a little frustrated that I'm put in a position where I really can't say no. I could be working some spring baseball to help me get ready for the regular season. I'm newer to baseball and could use the work (not to mention making money instead of spending it). Anyway, thanks for the thoughts. It is always interesting to hear everyone's opinions.
Yeah, yer locked in doubleringer.
Tsk, tsk. And don't you dare just do the song and dance!
You git to it. ...Finals next year.
You don't wanna git double skunked.
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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 09:24pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells
I won't do it. You can't make me, not even with an army of squirrels.
Not even the ones in that M&M commercial?
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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 09:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff
However, if you're already doing a good job for said assignor, there should at least be a discount for staff officials. And if he is just filling slots or wants to make sure you are keeping up with the game, he should offer the camp at no charge to his staff. The problem is that most of them are more interested in filling their pockets than filling slots.
I know that the responses to this are giving this poster a hard time, but I have the same questions.

Friend of mine goes to the same D3 women's camp every summer. Pays $300+ dollars to go, essentially just to stay on staff. Guy running the camp makes a fortune off of it and essentially expects the whole staff to come to fill the camp up.

Doesn't anyone see anything wrong with this ongoing pay to play mentality? It's starting to trickle down into the HS game here. I work a conference that many think is a top conference, but I refuse to clear my calendar to go to a camp the assignor runs that costs $300 with the not-so-veiled threat that "your schedule next season doesn't mean you have one the following season."
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Old Thu Apr 10, 2008, 09:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
I know that the responses to this are giving this poster a hard time, but I have the same questions.

Friend of mine goes to the same D3 women's camp every summer. Pays $300+ dollars to go, essentially just to stay on staff. Guy running the camp makes a fortune off of it and essentially expects the whole staff to come to fill the camp up.

Doesn't anyone see anything wrong with this ongoing pay to play mentality? It's starting to trickle down into the HS game here. I work a conference that many think is a top conference, but I refuse to clear my calendar to go to a camp the assignor runs that costs $300 with the not-so-veiled threat that "your schedule next season doesn't mean you have one the following season."
No I do not. This is a business. If you do not like the things it takes to keep doing business, get out. It is that simple. If you do not want to go to camp, someone else will pay to go to camp.

But here is the funny thing about all of this. I have never heard any college supervisor ever get upset if you cannot go to a camp if there is a conflict. I really almost never hear that when you are attending other camps or have been on staff for more than one year. That sounds more like that is what people want to think than the reality.

Peace
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