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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2008, 01:06am
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Originally Posted by RichMSN
Doesn't anyone see anything wrong with this ongoing pay to play mentality? It's starting to trickle down into the HS game here. I work a conference that many think is a top conference, but I refuse to clear my calendar to go to a camp the assignor runs that costs $300 with the not-so-veiled threat that "your schedule next season doesn't mean you have one the following season."
I do!!!!. I find it appalling that a high school assignor would want people to pay $300 to work their conference (because this is want you are doing). It will take about six game at a minimal to break even at that level. You have got to be ****ting me!!! You can give my slot to someone else.

And we wonder why some leave officiating.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2008, 01:15am
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[quote=JRutledge]No I do not. This is a business. If you do not like the things it takes to keep doing business, get out. It is that simple. If you do not want to go to camp, someone else will pay to go to camp.


Rut, with all do respect this is bullsh!t. The high school level is not design to give an assignor a comfortable lifestyle off his/her staff. Furthermore, I can understand if the pay was even close to what some may get paid at the collegiate level which it is not. I have to agree with you though on the business aspect. But, it should not be at the officials expense while the assignor take assignment fee + camp fee at the officials expense. The official IMO is getting F%%%ed in this scenario.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2008, 01:51am
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Originally Posted by truerookie
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
No I do not. This is a business. If you do not like the things it takes to keep doing business, get out. It is that simple. If you do not want to go to camp, someone else will pay to go to camp.

Rut, with all do respect this is bullsh!t. The high school level is not design to give an assignor a comfortable lifestyle off his/her staff. Furthermore, I can understand if the pay was even close to what some may get paid at the collegiate level which it is not. I have to agree with you though on the business aspect. But, it should not be at the officials expense while the assignor take assignment fee + camp fee at the officials expense. The official IMO is getting F%%%ed in this scenario.
First of all you really need to go back and read what I said. I was not talking about HS, but the sentiment is really the same. If you do not like the circumstances of having to work games, then do not work them. Do what Rich did and not take the games. No one is holding a gun to your head.

Secondly, I would like to ask you where does it say someone cannot charge you money to attend their camp? Officiating is a business. If you run any other business there is some overhead to that business. And sometimes you have to pay for services in order to make money. I know with my business I have to pay for a lot of things before I make a cent. There are a lot of things I have to do to grow my business that require me to pay someone for something to make some money. You will find no such proclamation at the HS level has to be so different than any other level. And if you can find such literature then please show us a link or reference to it, because I would love to see where that is located. You have to pay dues to an association right? I know some who have to pay to use Assign By Web or the Arbiter software. The issue is how much and is it worth it to you.

There is a reality to officiating and there is fantasy. What you are telling me is fantasy because you do not like the system. Now I have never lived in an area that required such a big amount, but I have had to attend camps to work conferences. If I did not attend the camps I did not work. I make choices like that all the time either with pay the money or the time, or you do not work.

Peace
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2008, 08:19am
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Since I started all this I'll chime in with my presonal philosophy. Yeah, I don't like paying for different camps every year, especially those I have to go to annually when I already work for that particular assignor. What I do is think of every camp as an investment as most of the camps pay off for me the following season. I also try to go in with the mentality that I am there to get better, not to get hired. Admittedly it gets harder to go in with this mentality as I get more experienced and work in more leagues, but I do try to focus on getting better.
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Old Fri Apr 11, 2008, 08:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
First of all you really need to go back and read what I said. I was not talking about HS, but the sentiment is really the same. If you do not like the circumstances of having to work games, then do not work them. Do what Rich did and not take the games. No one is holding a gun to your head.

Secondly, I would like to ask you where does it say someone cannot charge you money to attend their camp? Officiating is a business. If you run any other business there is some overhead to that business. And sometimes you have to pay for services in order to make money. I know with my business I have to pay for a lot of things before I make a cent. There are a lot of things I have to do to grow my business that require me to pay someone for something to make some money. You will find no such proclamation at the HS level has to be so different than any other level. And if you can find such literature then please show us a link or reference to it, because I would love to see where that is located. You have to pay dues to an association right? I know some who have to pay to use Assign By Web or the Arbiter software. The issue is how much and is it worth it to you.

There is a reality to officiating and there is fantasy. What you are telling me is fantasy because you do not like the system. Now I have never lived in an area that required such a big amount, but I have had to attend camps to work conferences. If I did not attend the camps I did not work. I make choices like that all the time either with pay the money or the time, or you do not work.

Peace
It will get to the point, Jeff, where only those with the time and money to attend multiple camps will get full schedules. Is that what high school sports is about?

There are some officials working I would not hire to work a middle school game. Some with no varsity experience at all are getting tons of work after attending one camp and it's clear they do not belong there. Deer-in-headlights looks, no whistles on obvious spots that require them, other officials having to carry a weak third, no feel for the game, etc. One would think that the assignors would worry about the product they put on the floor more, but it's clear that preference has been given to those who come to the camp and line the pockets of the assignor. I can only hope that the conferences look objectively at the product they are getting and assume they can do better.

One of the advantages of states that assign exclusively through officials' associations in that none of this stuff seems to happen within those groups and since the groups are run by officials, they have no interest in gouging each other.

Why should a HS camp ever cost $300? First of all, the campers are working games that would normally pay officials a certain amount. So not only do camp organizers get camp fees from each camper, they also get all the game fees the working officials would've gotten. The clinicians -- some are quite good, and some are HS officials who have been fast tracked for reasons (gender, race) other than ability who I wouldn't want to work a regular season game with and are people I personally wouldn't hire at a level higher than JV.

As a three-sport official, I never understand why basketball has this "camp" mentality and why it's trickled down. I work as much HS baseball as I want, my football crew works every Friday night, and not once has an assignor insisted that we go to a "camp." If you look at the state bulletin, 95% or more of the "education opportunities" are 3-person basketball camps, all of which cost way too much money for a HS camp. Seems nobody is willing to just run these to give back to the game, like the local association does every fall/winter for football and basketball.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2008, 08:54am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
As a three-sport official, I never understand why basketball has this "camp" mentality and why it's trickled down. I work as much HS baseball as I want, my football crew works every Friday night, and not once has an assignor insisted that we go to a "camp." .
I hear what you're saying overall. I believe the fact that basketball is a much faster game than the other 2 sports you do, camp is very neccesary to get better. JMO... I do football too for the record.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2008, 09:15am
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Originally Posted by Ch1town
I hear what you're saying overall. I believe the fact that basketball is a much faster game than the other 2 sports you do, camp is very neccesary to get better. JMO... I do football too for the record.
Basketball officials like to think their sport is special. I do not. I know this will be popular on the basketball board, but whatever.

I find that an umpire who has poor mechanics and hence calls a poor strike zone or a football crew that is flag-happy or flag-adverse has a much bigger effect on those respective games.
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Old Fri Apr 11, 2008, 09:46am
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Originally Posted by RichMSN
Basketball officials like to think their sport is special. I do not. I know this will be popular on the basketball board, but whatever.

Come on you've got to admit it, basketball is extremely special

I find that an umpire who has poor mechanics and hence calls a poor strike zone or a football crew that is flag-happy or flag-adverse has a much bigger effect on those respective games.
I concur with the second part of your post, you couldn't be more correct. But does baseball really need a camp for strike zone practice? Doesn't the zone change from batter to batter depending on their height? Just asking because I don't call balls & strikes.

The same with football, is camp really neccesary to know what to flag & what to pass on? Afterall, you can wave a flag off & baseball is so s l o w you have ample time to digest what happened a make a correct ruling.

No disrespect, just saying though. Basketball has so many plays within the game that need split decisions made on the spot. You don't have that factor in those other 2 sports.
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Old Fri Apr 11, 2008, 09:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
No I do not. This is a business. If you do not like the things it takes to keep doing business, get out. It is that simple. If you do not want to go to camp, someone else will pay to go to camp.

But here is the funny thing about all of this. I have never heard any college supervisor ever get upset if you cannot go to a camp if there is a conflict. I really almost never hear that when you are attending other camps or have been on staff for more than one year. That sounds more like that is what people want to think than the reality.

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On the contrary, I can say I have heard of this type of thing happening with certain college supervisors.
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Old Fri Apr 11, 2008, 09:59am
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Originally Posted by Ch1town
I concur with the second part of your post, you couldn't be more correct. But does baseball really need a camp for strike zone practice? Doesn't the zone change from batter to batter depending on their height? Just asking because I don't call balls & strikes.

The same with football, is camp really neccesary to know what to flag & what to pass on? Afterall, you can wave a flag off & baseball is so s l o w you have ample time to digest what happened a make a correct ruling.

No disrespect, just saying though. Basketball has so many plays within the game that need split decisions made on the spot. You don't have that factor in those other 2 sports.
No disrespect intended, either, but it's clear you really don't understand these sports. It's true that maybe we don't sprint as much in baseball or football, but the mechanics and techniques used in those sports are no less important than those used in basketball.
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Old Fri Apr 11, 2008, 10:12am
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Originally Posted by RichMSN
It's true that maybe we don't sprint as much in baseball or football, but the mechanics and techniques used in those sports are no less important than those used in basketball.
You're absolutely right.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2008, 10:43am
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Rut, I read what you said and you did not distinguish the difference between HS/College in your reply. When you stated, it is a business. Now, like I stated I understand the business aspect only on the collegiate level. I just don't buy that mentality on the high school level though.

The pay is difference between the two levels. Heck, look at some the pay that been posted on the forum in reference to HS and take a look at some the pay at the collegiate level DIII (3-person). Then tell me, why at the HS level the officials have to work twice as hard to draw even for attending a HS camp that charges $300 to attend. It stinks!!!
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2008, 11:39am
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Originally Posted by RichMSN
It will get to the point, Jeff, where only those with the time and money to attend multiple camps will get full schedules. Is that what high school sports is about?
If you assign a conference, the assignor can require you to do anything they want you to do. Now, that might eliminate good people if the requirements are too high and that is something the schools will have to decide if those are acceptable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
One of the advantages of states that assign exclusively through officials' associations in that none of this stuff seems to happen within those groups and since the groups are run by officials, they have no interest in gouging each other.
I do not work in a state like that and I have never paid $300 to attend a HS camp. The most I have paid is $150 and it is not a requirement to attend or else. It is required that you are seen by the assignor(s) if you want to work for them. But after you get hired I do not know of any assignor that still makes you go. I go every year because I want to be evaluated and get better. And the instructors are college officials and many have worked D1 so I feel it is a good start before going to my other camps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
Why should a HS camp ever cost $300? First of all, the campers are working games that would normally pay officials a certain amount. So not only do camp organizers get camp fees from each camper, they also get all the game fees the working officials would've gotten. The clinicians -- some are quite good, and some are HS officials who have been fast tracked for reasons (gender, race) other than ability who I wouldn't want to work a regular season game with and are people I personally wouldn't hire at a level higher than JV.
You never know the arrangement for the camp. The Camp Organizer has to pay insurance, clinicians to be there and spend their time. They might pay for food and drinks and sometimes pay other people to do everything from take money or other things to assist in making sure people are in attendance or making the schedule. There are a lot of things that go into running a camp that has nothing to do getting paid and might not make money for the organizer after all is said and done. I have no idea what you get for that $300 and whether you are getting jobbed or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
As a three-sport official, I never understand why basketball has this "camp" mentality and why it's trickled down. I work as much HS baseball as I want, my football crew works every Friday night, and not once has an assignor insisted that we go to a "camp." If you look at the state bulletin, 95% or more of the "education opportunities" are 3-person basketball camps, all of which cost way too much money for a HS camp. Seems nobody is willing to just run these to give back to the game, like the local association does every fall/winter for football and basketball.
I also work three sports and basketball is very different. Basketball in my opinion is one of the hardest sports to work. You do not have positions that you can coast in different part of the games or the entire game. And basketball is an indoor sport where you can play multiple games in a day over a short period of time. You cannot do that in other sports. But I have had to deal with other situations where if you do not attend certain "camps" in my other sports, you will not work games. You might not work any games, but the requirement is still there. And the expense can be more than $300 in those cases and I had no opportunity to prove myself good or bad on the field to do so.

Peace
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2008, 11:55am
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Originally Posted by truerookie
Rut, I read what you said and you did not distinguish the difference between HS/College in your reply. When you stated, it is a business. Now, like I stated I understand the business aspect only on the collegiate level. I just don't buy that mentality on the high school level though.
Rich's concern was about whether it was right at the college level. Then he commented on how he felt it was trickling down to the HS level. My comments were mainly about what he thought about the system. If you really want to make distictions, college camps usually require a longer travel time and more days out of town. Many HS camps are not that far away unless you want it to be. And you have yet to show me where it is supposed to be different?

Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
The pay is difference between the two levels. Heck, look at some the pay that been posted on the forum in reference to HS and take a look at some the pay at the collegiate level DIII (3-person). Then tell me, why at the HS level the officials have to work twice as hard to draw even for attending a HS camp that charges $300 to attend. It stinks!!!
I look at camps differently than you do. The camp I am attending is an investment in me, not how much I get back during the season. We are looking at this from two totally different perspectives. If I only get $50 out of that $300 from that assignor, I likely learned more that will help me in my other games. If I feel that is not worth it, I will not go.

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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sat Apr 12, 2008, 01:40am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge

I look at camps differently than you do. The camp I am attending is an investment in me, not how much I get back during the season. We are looking at this from two totally different perspectives. If I only get $50 out of that $300 from that assignor, I likely learned more that will help me in my other games. If I feel that is not worth it, I will not go.

Peace
I can live with this analogy.
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