Inbounding and backboard slapping

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Let's say that after a legal try, the ball ends up sitting on the ring, and a defensive player accidentally grabs the net. Basket vibrates (10-3-5), or doesn't vibrate (10-3-4). Ball falls into basket. Technical foul. Disallow the goal (basket (net) grab technical foul caused ball to become dead). [/IMG]

Why would the T cause the ball to become dead? It's still a try and teh ball doesn't become dead until the try ends.

So, the basket counts.

Plus, it's also BI.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Let's say that after a legal try, the ball ends up sitting on the ring, and a defensive player accidentally grabs the net. Basket vibrates (10-3-5), or doesn't vibrate (10-3-4). Ball falls into basket. Technical foul. Disallow the goal (basket (net) grab technical foul caused ball to become dead).

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Why would the T cause the ball to become dead? It's still a try and teh ball doesn't become dead until the try ends.

So, the basket counts.

Plus, it's also BI.

Well, I guess another myth bites the dust.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Why would the T cause the ball to become dead? It's still a try and the ball doesn't become dead until the try ends.

So, the basket counts.

Plus, it's also BI.

Isn't the BI simultaneous to the "T"? Thus the try ended with the BI. Iow, the ball does become dead at the exact same time as the "T" is called, but it is the concurrent BI that makes it dead, not the "T".

I know it's semantics and that you already knew that, but I wanted to point it out to Billy.

Billy, if you want a cite for that, see the last sentence of case book play 4.41.4SitA.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The defensive player is charged with the technical foul, as you said. However, the defensive player is also charged with BI at the same time, for touching the net while the ball was on the ring. You penalize both. You award the basket for defensive BI and you also charge the defensive player with a "T" for grabbing the net. Read case book play 9.11.1SitB. It's basically the exact same play.

9.11.1 Situation B: While the ball is touching the ring of the basket on a field-goal attempt, B1 grasps the ring when there is no threat of injury.
Ruling: This is a double infraction and both acts are penalized. It is both basket interference and a technical foul. The moment the hand touched the ring, it was basket interference. When the player grasped the ring, a technical foul occurred. Award two points to Team A, followed by two free throws and a division line throw-in. (10-3-4 Exception)

Thanks for the citation. It makes this situation a lot clearer, and doesn't leave me scratching my head. This case play makes it seem like the touch came first, basket interference, ball dead, award points, and the grab came immediately after, grabbing during dead ball, technical foul, two shots, ball at division line, foul added to player, and team total.

Thanks for your effort and research. I knew something about my interpretation seemed odd, because it was wrong.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This case play makes it seem like the touch came first, basket interference, ball dead, award points, and the grab came immediately after, grabbing during dead ball, technical foul, two shots, ball at division line, foul added to player, and team total.

I went back and edited my post. I should have said "grabbed" instead of "touched". There was no touch followed by a grab...just a grab of the net. The grabbing of the net is a BI violation if it happens when the ball is on the ring. The ball becomes dead at that time. Grabbing the net and shaking the ring is also a technical foul. The BI violation and the technical foul occurred simultaneously and both acts are penalized accordingly. That's what the case play cited basically is saying.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I went back and edited my post. I should have said "grabbed" instead of "touched". There was no touch followed by a grab...just a grab of the net. The grabbing of the net is a BI violation if it happens when the ball is on the ring. The ball becomes dead at that time. Grabbing the net and shaking the ring is also a technical foul. The BI violation and the technical foul occurred simultaneously and both acts are penalized accordingly. That's what the case play cited basically is saying.

I thought that your previous posts cleared up this situation, and my incorrect interpretation, in my mind. Now, I am confused again.

In order to grab something, don't you have to touch it (make contact with it) first? You can touch something without grabbing it, but, you can't grab something without touching it first.

I'm going to take chance at being ridiculed here, but I don't believe that these acts, a violation, and a foul, are simultaneous, as you state above. I believe that the touch, and violation, came first, and the grab, and foul, came immediately, but not simultaneously, after the violation. I also believe that the ball was dead, by the violation, when the foul, the grab, occurred, but it's a technical foul to grab the basket at any time, live ball, or dead ball, except when preventing an injury.

I do agree with you that both acts are penalized accordingly.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Now, I am confused again.

In order to grab something, don't you have to touch it (make contact with it) first? You can touch something without grabbing it, but, you can't grab something without touching it first.

I'm going to take chance at being ridiculed here, but I don't believe that these acts, a violation, and a foul, are simultaneous, as you state above. I believe that the touch, and violation, came first, and the grab, and foul, came immediately, but not simultaneously, after the violation. I also believe that the ball was dead, by the violation, when the foul, the grab, occurred, but it's a technical foul to grab the basket at any time, live ball, or dead ball, except when preventing an injury.

There might be a better word than "confused" but....

I'll give it one last try.

1) Under the rules concerning BI, there is no differentiation between touching the net or grabbing the net. Both are violations. See rule 4-6-2. Therefore, whether you "touch" the net or you "grab" the net while the ball is on the ring, you are committing a BI violation in both cases. Touching = grabbing iow. They are regarded as the exact same thing under this rule.

2) Under rule 10-3-4, it is a technical foul to "grab" the net. It is not a technical foul to "touch" the net. Touching does NOT equal grabbing iow. They are NOT the exact same thing under this rule.

Sooooooo.....to sum up......if you GRAB the net while the ball is on the ring, you simultaneously commit a BI violation under #1 above AND you also get a technical foul under #2 above.

If you only touch the net while the ball is on the ring, you get charged with BI under #1 but do NOT get a technical foul under #2.

I have no idea how to make it any clearer than that.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Under the rules concerning BI, there is no differentiation between touching the net or grabbing the net. Both are violations. See rule 4-6-2. Therefore, whether you "touch" the net or you "grab" the net while the ball is on the ring, you are committing a BI violation in both cases. Touching = grabbing iow. They are regarded as the exact same thing under this rule.

2) Under rule 10-3-4, it is a technical foul to "grab" the net. It is not a technical foul to "touch" the net. Touching does NOT equal grabbing iow. They are NOT the exact same thing under this rule.

If you GRAB the net while the ball is on the ring, you simultaneously commit a BI violation under #1 above AND you also get a technical foul under #2 above.

If you only touch the net while the ball is on the ring, you get charged with BI under #1 but do NOT get a technical foul under #2.

No confusion with 1).

No confusion with 2).

No confusion with: If you only touch the net while the ball is on the ring, you get charged with BI under #1 but do NOT get a technical foul under #2.

Problem with: If you GRAB the net while the ball is on the ring, you simultaneously commit a BI violation under #1 above AND you also get a technical foul under #2 above. Specifically with the word simultaneously. I don't believe that these acts, a violation, and a foul, are simultaneous. I believe that the touch, and violation, came first, and the grab, and foul, came immediately, but not simultaneously, after the violation. 9.11.1B states "The moment the hand touched the ring, it was basket interference. When the player grasped the ring, a technical foul occurred." The word "moment" in the first sentence, and the word "when" in the second sentence, seem to imply that these are not simultaneous acts. Note that I said "seem" and "imply", I'm still not 100% sure.

I know that you said "one last try", and I would have no problem with the lack of a followup response from you, you've been patient enough with me, but is there anyway that you can, at least, consider, that the violation, and foul, are not truly simultaneous, but the rules still allow us, as you pointed out several posts ago, to penalize both acts accordingly.

You've already corrected my incorrect interpretation of this situation, we penalize both acts accordingly. Thanks. I would like to be in 100% agreement with you. We're almost there. The word simultaneous is the only thing keeping me from being in 100% agreement with you.

[just another ref]

Since both infractions are penalized, what difference does it make it they occurred simultaneously or one immediately followed the other?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Since both infractions are penalized, what difference does it make it they occurred simultaneously or one immediately followed the other?

It's not a big deal. If simultaneous, then the foul occurred during a live ball. If not simultaneous, the foul occurred during a dead ball. I'm on my local board's training committee, and one of the first things that we teach new officials, because it's so important, it the difference between a live ball, and a dead ball, and how a ball become live, and how a ball becomes dead. But, your right. In the grand scheme of basketball rules, and interpretations, this is the least of an official's problems. I just need to get some closure on this.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTefXoHv.../nobigdeal.JPG

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

.

I know that you said "one last try", and I would have no problem with the lack of a followup response from you, you've been patient enough with me, but is there anyway that you can, at least, consider, that the violation, and foul, are not truly simultaneous, but the rules still allow us, as you pointed out several posts ago, to penalize both acts accordingly.

NO!!!!

The instant that you grab the net when the ball is on the ring, you simultaneously commit basket interference and a technical foul. The rules that I cited--rules 4-6-1 and 10-3-4-- very explicitly tell you that. The ball also becomes dead instantly on the concurrent basket interference violation. That's rule 6-7-9.

You not only have to know the rules; you have to understand them.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

NO!!!!.

Thanks for the followup. Thanks for setting me straight on the double penalty in this situation. As hard as it is for me to disagree with someone with your knowledge of the rules, and interpretations, I'm sticking with my opinion that in milliseconds, the official thinks "touch-basket interference, grab-technical foul", and blows the whistle once. I also have the opinion that the grab did not cause the ball to be dead, it was already dead with the basket interference. I'm no longer going to try to convince you otherwise because I'm probably wrong. But, not due to lack of trying, and I thank you for that, you haven't convinced me 100%.

Thanks for straightening me out on the penalty, points awarded for basket interference, two foul shots for the technical foul, ball at division line opposite the table, foul added to personal, and team, totals. Thanks to you, at least I have that part right now.