Need some help here ...

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I had an almost, similar situation in my next to last game this past season. Player jumps to get offensive rebound, lands on the floor after jumping and securing rebound, goes through the usual motion to make the put back shot, is fouled in the act of shooting, foul causes player to bring ball back down, after ball is brought back down, he pushes it up again, and in this case, misses the shot. It almost looked like a double pump motion. Easy call. Fouled in the act of shooting. Missed shot. Two free throws.

The problem was, that the ball almost went in, so I wondered, after the game, in discussing this play with my partner, what I would have done if the ball did go in? Use continuous motion, and count the basket, one free throw? Or, did the "double pump" motion stop the continuous motion, thus, take away the basket, two free throws?

There were clearly, to my eye, two separate shot attempts. Would it make a difference if the shooter was airborne for both of these "two" shots? If airborne has an impact on this, I would have no idea what to call, because as the lead, I was looking at the contact, at head, and above level, and even being deep on the endline, I made no observation as to whether the shooter was airborne the entire time, or not.

I've had this happen 2 or 3 times and I awarded 2 shots declared no basket. It was deemed correct by the evaluator.
Another similar sitch is where the shooter is fouled in the act but travels before releasing the ball. Same thing -- 2 shots, no basket.

[Adam]

I can see not allowing the basket on the travel, but why not the double pump?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I can see not allowing the basket on the travel, but why not the double pump?

If he doesn't release the ball, it's either a held ball or a travel.

The way I read BillyMac's situation, I have no basket (if the second one goes), but 2 FTs for the original foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

If he doesn't release the ball, it's either a held ball or a travel.

The way I read BillyMac's situation, I have no basket (if the second one goes), but 2 FTs for the original foul.

If the foul is on the arm, no held ball. If the player doesn't return to the floor, no travel.
I'm seeing a double pump move from the shooter that would have been totally legal without the foul. Why are we taking away a basket just because the shooter does a legal double pump after starting his shooting motion?

Give him the shot.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If the foul is on the arm, no held ball. If the player doesn't return to the floor, no travel.
I'm seeing a double pump move from the shooter that would have been totally legal without the foul. Why are we taking away a basket just because the shooter does a legal double pump after starting his shooting motion?

Give him the shot.

When I read the situation, I assumed that the player jumped to attempt the first shot.

Assuming the player stayed on the floor, I'd say count the basket.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

When I read the situation, I assumed that the player jumped to attempt the first shot. Assuming the player stayed on the floor, I'd say count the basket.

Thanks for the input, but I'd like to keep this as simple as possible.

First, let's assume, for sake of simplicity, that the player stays on the floor the entire time, thus making this a problem regarding the definition of continuous motion. Use continuous motion, and count the basket, one free throw? Or, did the "double pump" motion stop the continuous motion, thus, take away the basket, two free throws?

Once that is cleared up, we can put the player in the air, and then discuss the impact of an airborne shooter, and continuous motion, on this play.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks for the input, but I'd like to keep this as simple as possible.

First, let's assume, for sake of simplicity, that the player stays on the floor the entire time, thus making this a problem regarding the definition of continuous motion. Use continuous motion, and count the basket, one free throw? Or, did the "double pump" motion stop the continuous motion, thus, take away the basket, two free throws?

Once that is cleared up, we can put the player in the air, and then discuss the impact of an airborne shooter, and continuous motion, on this play.

This may be a HTBT, but I wouldn't automatically wave it off just because of the double pump.

That said, I tend to be pretty generous compared to other refs with the application of continuous motion.

[Reffing Rev.]

Originally Posted by socalreff

I've had this happen 2 or 3 times and I awarded 2 shots declared no basket. It was deemed correct by the evaluator.
.

I see a problem...I hope you're in double bonus because good luck selling even the most pleasant coach that he was fouled on the shot which went in, but we're not counting it because he wasn't really shooting just making a pump fake. I agree there is a line when it is obvious the foul happened and he stopped his initial shot attempt and then just put up another shot after the foul, and where that line is is sometimes hard to determine. I am picturing two different situations, in one it is obvious to everyone in the gym that the shot attempt and foul were separate from the scoring goal, and one when it is likely separate but not so obvious. When I'm observing I'm making a note when its not so obvious and I can't figure out why they are shooting 2.