Need some help here ...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

If he doesn't release the ball, it's either a held ball or a travel.

The way I read BillyMac's situation, I have no basket (if the second one goes), but 2 FTs for the original foul.

If the foul is on the arm, no held ball. If the player doesn't return to the floor, no travel.
I'm seeing a double pump move from the shooter that would have been totally legal without the foul. Why are we taking away a basket just because the shooter does a legal double pump after starting his shooting motion?

Give him the shot.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If the foul is on the arm, no held ball. If the player doesn't return to the floor, no travel.
I'm seeing a double pump move from the shooter that would have been totally legal without the foul. Why are we taking away a basket just because the shooter does a legal double pump after starting his shooting motion?

Give him the shot.

When I read the situation, I assumed that the player jumped to attempt the first shot.

Assuming the player stayed on the floor, I'd say count the basket.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

When I read the situation, I assumed that the player jumped to attempt the first shot. Assuming the player stayed on the floor, I'd say count the basket.

Thanks for the input, but I'd like to keep this as simple as possible.

First, let's assume, for sake of simplicity, that the player stays on the floor the entire time, thus making this a problem regarding the definition of continuous motion. Use continuous motion, and count the basket, one free throw? Or, did the "double pump" motion stop the continuous motion, thus, take away the basket, two free throws?

Once that is cleared up, we can put the player in the air, and then discuss the impact of an airborne shooter, and continuous motion, on this play.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks for the input, but I'd like to keep this as simple as possible.

First, let's assume, for sake of simplicity, that the player stays on the floor the entire time, thus making this a problem regarding the definition of continuous motion. Use continuous motion, and count the basket, one free throw? Or, did the "double pump" motion stop the continuous motion, thus, take away the basket, two free throws?

Once that is cleared up, we can put the player in the air, and then discuss the impact of an airborne shooter, and continuous motion, on this play.

This may be a HTBT, but I wouldn't automatically wave it off just because of the double pump.

That said, I tend to be pretty generous compared to other refs with the application of continuous motion.

[Adam]

I was reading this as an airborne shooter who double pumped due to the foul, but released the shot prior to landing.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was reading this as an airborne shooter who double pumped due to the foul, but released the shot prior to landing.

Sounds good, but, first, could you help with the simplier situation where the shooter is on the ground the entire time he's shooting, making it only a continuous motion question?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sounds good, but, first, could you help with the simplier situation where the shooter is on the ground the entire time he's shooting, making it only a continuous motion question?

You (the official) needs to determine whether the double pump was one move or was the stop and start of another move.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

This play is not very complicated. I will reference NFHS rules to make my ruling but my ruling will be the same for a game played under NCAA Men’s/Women’s and FIBA rules. The following rules apply to the play being discussed:


CONTINUOUS MOTION:

R4-S11-A1: Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws,
But it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the
interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with
the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.

R4-S11-A2: If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is
permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or
stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any
activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual
throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.


SHOOTING, TRY, and TAP:

R4-S41-A1: The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap
and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.

R4-S41-A2: A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by
throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the
player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to
throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul
could prevent release of the ball.

R4-S41-A3: The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes
the release of the ball.


TRAVELING:

R4-S44: Traveling (running with the ball) is moving a foot or feet in any direction in
excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements
are as follows:

R4-S44-A1: A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop,
and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.

R4-S44-A2: After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is
released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball
is released on a pass or try for goal.
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.


Now let us look at A1’s play without complicating it with a foul by B1:

A1 is dribbling toward his basket (his opponent’s basket in FIBA rules). A1 wants to shoot the ball. A1 cannot shoot the ball while dribbling the ball, therefore A1 must stop his dribble before he can start his act of shooting. In the original post A1 stopped his dribble while both of his feet were off the floor. A1 then landed simultaneously on both feet. At this point A1 can do any of the following things described in R4-S44-A2.

The rules tell us that before A1 can shoot the ball, he must stop his dribble and that the instant his dribble has ended CAN be the start of his act of shooting.


Now let us add B1’s foul to the play. B1 fouled A1 after A1 had stopped his dribble. Since the Travel Rule allow A1 certain actions after he stops his dribble and the Continuous Motion Rule allows A1 to complete any foot or body movement associated with shooting the ball, one must see the whole play before ruling whether B1’s personal foul is either a common foul or a foul committed against a player in the act of shooting.

Once A1 lands simultaneously on both feet he can: (1) do nothing with the ball; (2) pass the ball to a teammate; or (3) shoot the ball. If A1 does (1) or (2) then B1’s foul is a common foul, but if A1 does (3) or if in the judgment of the official B1’s foul kept A1 from releasing the ball for a try, then B1’s foul was committed against a player in the act of shooting.

REMEMBER: See the whole play and do not penalize A1 because of B1’s foul.

MTD, Sr.

[Reffing Rev.]

Originally Posted by socalreff

I've had this happen 2 or 3 times and I awarded 2 shots declared no basket. It was deemed correct by the evaluator.
.

I see a problem...I hope you're in double bonus because good luck selling even the most pleasant coach that he was fouled on the shot which went in, but we're not counting it because he wasn't really shooting just making a pump fake. I agree there is a line when it is obvious the foul happened and he stopped his initial shot attempt and then just put up another shot after the foul, and where that line is is sometimes hard to determine. I am picturing two different situations, in one it is obvious to everyone in the gym that the shot attempt and foul were separate from the scoring goal, and one when it is likely separate but not so obvious. When I'm observing I'm making a note when its not so obvious and I can't figure out why they are shooting 2.