Need some help here ...

[Johnny Ringo]

A1 is driving ... jumps gathers the ball and appears to be landing on two feet (jump stop) ... while in the air B1 hacks A1 - before he lands. WHISTLE ... foul. Ball on baseline ... correct call? O rshould he be awarded two shots?

Continuous motion?

Player never attempted the shot ... but, what if player had attempted the shot after the jump stop?

[just another ref]

You said he never attempted the shot. Why would there be free throws? 4-41-3: The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. What you describe above does not sound like it meets this definition.

[Johnny Ringo]

I am working an Easter AAU event ... I agree ... the foul was on the jump stop - not the shot. I had a Div. I official tell me continuous motion applies here and I should have awarded the FTs. huh????????

[just another ref]

Was the whistle late? Did the guy shoot after the whistle? He might not have realized when the foul occurred.

[Coltdoggs]

From your post and what you described you saw...You don't have a shooting foul. From your post, it appears to me that you had your mind made up that he was going to jump stop.

What if he didn't get fouled until he came back down, then got fouled just as his feet hit the floor..would you call a shooting foul there?

If you thought he started his shooting motion, then award the FTs....

It's a judgement call if you think he's pulling the trigger to shoot...I don't think the jumpstop is part of that. I'm not giving continuous motion on a jumpstop...Too many things could occur after your foul that would tell me clearly he's not in the shooting motion.....he could land, pump fake 3X then shoot, he could land, pivot a couple times....he could land, fake, pass....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

A1 is driving ... jumps gathers the ball and appears to be landing on two feet (jump stop) ... while in the air B1 hacks A1 - before he lands. WHISTLE ... foul. Ball on baseline ... correct call? Or should he be awarded two shots?

Continuous motion?

Player never attempted the shot ... but, what if player had attempted the shot after the jump stop?

Break the play down. You've got two possible separate and distinct acts made by the dribbler;
1) he gathers the ball and makes a jump stop.
2) after making the jump stop, he goes into the "act of shooting"...i.e. he jumps to shoot the ball.

If the player is fouled during (1), he's fouled while ending his dribble. So, in the play above, B1 hacked A1 when A1 was ending his dribble. Ergo, it's a common foul.

If the player is fouled during (2)....i.e. when he jumps after completing the jump stop, he is fouled in the "act of shooting". Ergo, 2 shots(unless he jump-stopped outside the arc).

You end the dribble by jump-stopping. After you end the dribble, you can pass, shoot, or call a TO.

Make sense?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

I am working an Easter AAU event ... I agree ... the foul was on the jump stop - not the shot. I had a Div. I official tell me continuous motion applies here and I should have awarded the FTs. huh????????

Tell him that the interps are slightly different in Div. I, that the customary thinking at your level in your area is that the jump stop would be the beginning of the continuous motion, and the shooting didn't start before then.

If a player says, "I was shooting!", tell her that to get the continuous motion judgment next time, she should try continuing her shooting motion. That will give the ref the hint, whether or not the ref takes it.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Tell him that the interps are slightly different in Div. I, that the customary thinking at your level in your area is that the jump stop would be the beginning of the continuous motion, and the shooting didn't start before then.

If a player says, "I was shooting!", tell her that to get the continuous motion judgment next time, she should try continuing her shooting motion. That will give the ref the hint, whether or not the ref takes it.

I'm really not getting this at all.

The rules and interpretations are identical with regards to awarding FTs under ncaa & fed. As JR said if you judge this the end of a dribble then no FTs, if you judge this the start of the shooting motion then FTs. This play cannot be discussed without seeing what happened. Has nothing to do with level or area, or at least it shouldn't.

And your second comment I just don't get - where is it written (or even unwritten) that a player must continue the shooting motion after the foul to get FTs? It's only a small step from here to believing the shot must be released to get FTs on a foul.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

I am working an Easter AAU event ... I agree ... the foul was on the jump stop - not the shot. I had a Div. I official tell me continuous motion applies here and I should have awarded the FTs. huh????????

What was the D1 official's role? Parent sitting in the stands? Friend of yours? Coach? Evaluator?

I still don't get how you judged this to be a jump stop if he was fouled in the air. A "jump stop" is defined in the rules as a sequence of actions by the player with the ball - what you thought MIGHT have resulted in a jump stop could have ended with a shot or a pass to the perimeter if the player didn't get fouled. In any event if you judged he started his shooting motion then give FTs, otherwise don't. No biggie.

[BillyMac]

I had an almost, similar situation in my next to last game this past season. Player jumps to get offensive rebound, lands on the floor after jumping and securing rebound, goes through the usual motion to make the put back shot, is fouled in the act of shooting, foul causes player to bring ball back down, after ball is brought back down, he pushes it up again, and in this case, misses the shot. It almost looked like a double pump motion. Easy call. Fouled in the act of shooting. Missed shot. Two free throws.

The problem was, that the ball almost went in, so I wondered, after the game, in discussing this play with my partner, what I would have done if the ball did go in? Use continuous motion, and count the basket, one free throw? Or, did the "double pump" motion stop the continuous motion, thus, take away the basket, two free throws?

There were clearly, to my eye, two separate shot attempts. Would it make a difference if the shooter was airborne for both of these "two" shots? If airborne has an impact on this, I would have no idea what to call, because as the lead, I was looking at the contact, at head, and above level, and even being deep on the endline, I made no observation as to whether the shooter was airborne the entire time, or not.

[Johnny Ringo]

The Div. I official is also working the event. It's a boys event with some of the best players in the country and officials from all over the country.

I think you all have answered my question ... the fould occured while the player was gathering the ball on a jump stop.

This official (nice guy) was trying to explain that there is continuous motion -- I just did not see how it fit into this play. A1 had not even come down when the foul was called and could have done a variety of things once he jump stopped! Thanks!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I had an almost, similar situation in my next to last game this past season. Player jumps to get offensive rebound, lands on the floor after jumping and securing rebound, goes through the usual motion to make the put back shot, is fouled in the act of shooting, foul causes player to bring ball back down, after ball is brought back down, he pushes it up again, and in this case, misses the shot. It almost looked like a double pump motion. Easy call. Fouled in the act of shooting. Missed shot. Two free throws.

The problem was, that the ball almost went in, so I wondered, after the game, in discussing this play with my partner, what I would have done if the ball did go in? Use continuous motion, and count the basket, one free throw? Or, did the "double pump" motion stop the continuous motion, thus, take away the basket, two free throws?

There were clearly, to my eye, two separate shot attempts. Would it make a difference if the shooter was airborne for both of these "two" shots? If airborne has an impact on this, I would have no idea what to call, because as the lead, I was looking at the contact, at head, and above level, and even being deep on the endline, I made no observation as to whether the shooter was airborne the entire time, or not.

Count it.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I had an almost, similar situation in my next to last game this past season. Player jumps to get offensive rebound, lands on the floor after jumping and securing rebound, goes through the usual motion to make the put back shot, is fouled in the act of shooting, foul causes player to bring ball back down, after ball is brought back down, he pushes it up again, and in this case, misses the shot. It almost looked like a double pump motion. Easy call. Fouled in the act of shooting. Missed shot. Two free throws.

The problem was, that the ball almost went in, so I wondered, after the game, in discussing this play with my partner, what I would have done if the ball did go in? Use continuous motion, and count the basket, one free throw? Or, did the "double pump" motion stop the continuous motion, thus, take away the basket, two free throws?

There were clearly, to my eye, two separate shot attempts. Would it make a difference if the shooter was airborne for both of these "two" shots? If airborne has an impact on this, I would have no idea what to call, because as the lead, I was looking at the contact, at head, and above level, and even being deep on the endline, I made no observation as to whether the shooter was airborne the entire time, or not.

I've had this happen 2 or 3 times and I awarded 2 shots declared no basket. It was deemed correct by the evaluator.
Another similar sitch is where the shooter is fouled in the act but travels before releasing the ball. Same thing -- 2 shots, no basket.

[Adam]

I can see not allowing the basket on the travel, but why not the double pump?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I can see not allowing the basket on the travel, but why not the double pump?

If he doesn't release the ball, it's either a held ball or a travel.

The way I read BillyMac's situation, I have no basket (if the second one goes), but 2 FTs for the original foul.