Your thoughts please.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

In the OP, the acts of the player were clearly to influence the decision of the officials, but no T was ever issued. It certainly sounds like the player's attitude continued to rise because the official didn't take care of business earlier.

Or, as it appears to me, the player knew his boundaries during the game. After the game, he felt he had license to say what he wanted. By "eating" this, the official passively tells the player that he was right.

[Coltdoggs]

I can't really say what I would have done because my emotions are not in it reading it right now....After the game...I'm probably going to ignore it and show know emotion that I heard it and I might talk to his coach afterwards....I think you could have prevented it with some dialogue to him or the coach earlier in the game....

Here is a suggestion...If you feel like you want to pass on the T and you feel like you need to say something to him or him and the coach together....He's an 8th grader...why not use this as a means to simply educate him about the possibilities of what COULD happen.

Sure, he probably doesn't want to listen, but if you are "chasing" him down....Why not just put your arm around him and take bits and pieces of some of the things that have been posted here....

"Son, I undertand you are frustrated with the loss and the calls....do yourself a favor as you move up the ranks of Bball and watch how you address the officials. Comments like that could get you tossed out of a game and could prevent you from playing in future games and I'm sure you don't want to hurt your team/that to happen."

Again, it's 8th grader and if it's AAU I am sure the kid has been told how good he is the past 3 years....

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

....Why not just put your arm around him and take bits and pieces of some of the things that have been posted here....

That's a REALLY BAD idea after an emotional outburst by a 14 year old that isn't your son or daugter.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

That's a REALLY BAD idea after an emotional outburst by a 14 year old that isn't your son or daugter.

Agreed. Contact should be avoided.

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

That's a REALLY BAD idea after an emotional outburst by a 14 year old that isn't your son or daugter.

It very well may be....however, I have used it before and will do so in the future....

I did it Saturday on a player who picked up a T early in the first quarter when he took exception to a foul/headlock after he put on a very nice pump fake....Both players got to jawing so I hit them both with Ts. It was later in the quarter and the kid who got fouled still seemed upset and make an overly aggresive swipe that drew some contact which he was whistled for... took him aside and said:

"Let me explain to you what is going to happen if you keep this up and pick up another T....You'll be done for this game and if your team advances, you will not be playing in that game. Do you want that to happen?" He answered NO....I then said, "Do yourself and your team a favor and get your head right, right now and play under control". He said "yes sir" and I had no issues with him the rest of the game....

These are kids...there are different ways to teach them...They don't really have that ability to see past point A to B....they don't know what lies ahead in C, D and E......In the OP's sitch...I don't really know that the T after the game is done is going to do anything for him....I'd probalby choose to handle it differently...something that I would hope to be more effective and sink in....That's all...At a higher level....sure, slap that T....the HS Assocs. will find out about it....AAU, Travel/Rec stuff...what's that T gonna do...A big "So Effin' What....You still SUCK!"

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

These are kids...there are different ways to teach them...They don't really have that ability to see past point A to B....they don't know what lies ahead in C, D and E......In the OP's sitch...I don't really know that the T after the game is done is going to do anything for him....I'd probalby choose to handle it differently...something that I would hope to be more effective and sink in....That's all...At a higher level....sure, slap that T....the HS Assocs. will find out about it....AAU, Travel/Rec stuff...what's that T gonna do...A big "So Effin' What....You still SUCK!"

At this point, my only concern is to give what was earned (the T).
If you need to know what it accomplishes (aside from following the rules and casebook), it's easy.
It teaches the little turn that the final horn isn't a license to be stupid. The fact that he saved it for after the horn tells me that's precisely what he thought.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The fact that he saved it for after the horn tells me that's precisely what he thought.

You can't know that for sure.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

You can't know that for sure.

True, but it's not a court of law. I don't have to, and that's not why I'm calling the T anyway. I'm calling the T because the comment deserves it, and the NFHS wants it called.

Teaching the kid a lesson is only an added benefit of the call.

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

It very well may be....however, I have used it before and will do so in the future....

I did it Saturday on a player who picked up a T early in the first quarter when he took exception to a foul/headlock after he put on a very nice pump fake....Both players got to jawing so I hit them both with Ts. It was later in the quarter and the kid who got fouled still seemed upset and make an overly aggresive swipe that drew some contact which he was whistled for... took him aside and said:

"Let me explain to you what is going to happen if you keep this up and pick up another T....You'll be done for this game and if your team advances, you will not be playing in that game. Do you want that to happen?" He answered NO....I then said, "Do yourself and your team a favor and get your head right, right now and play under control". He said "yes sir" and I had no issues with him the rest of the game....

These are kids...there are different ways to teach them...They don't really have that ability to see past point A to B....they don't know what lies ahead in C, D and E......In the OP's sitch...I don't really know that the T after the game is done is going to do anything for him....I'd probalby choose to handle it differently...something that I would hope to be more effective and sink in....That's all...At a higher level....sure, slap that T....the HS Assocs. will find out about it....AAU, Travel/Rec stuff...what's that T gonna do...A big "So Effin' What....You still SUCK!"

Is that really our role? I can see your point as far as trying to "counsel" a kid as to where his behavior may lead...but I don't think that's our place during (or immediately following) a game . By 14, these kids know what is and is not acceptable behavior on the court...further, I think pointing out where it may lead is the coach/parents job.

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Is that really our role? I can see your point as far as trying to "counsel" a kid as to where his behavior may lead...but I don't think that's our place during a game. By 14, these kids know what is and is not acceptable behavior on the court...further, I think pointing out where it may lead is the coach/parents job.

BZ....it depends on the level I'm working with. I sit on the Board for a local rec league (grades 3-8) and I also officiate in it. I work a ton of JRHS ball because that's the level I like...I do some summer HS stuff. Our league, the emphasis is on sportsmanship and teaching the kids the game. I agree that at 14 and AAU/Travel...the kids SHOULD know....but that is a whole 'nother story that we could talk hours about (single family homes, absentee fathers).

In short...yes, I feel part of my role as an official, I also look at as an ambassador to the game and teacher of the game for those youth I have in my leagues. I also happen to coach so perhaps I keep a little of each hat on when officiating and dealing with some of these types of situations. I like when the kids show up at the gym and want to know if I'm on their court today....That comes from my efforts both on and off the floor...

I look at it like this..Some of our action/dealings today could help a kid make a school team or get or keep a kid from losing a scholarship later if we handle it right (and not saying a T in the OP's post wouldn't help). I can't give you all the scenarios where I would talk to a kid or just let my T and his coach handle it....For ME...it's a bigger picture thing because I have watched many a player toss away their talent that could have put them in a better position later in life. As I tell some of the HS kids I know who are on Varsity teams..."Use the game, don't let it use you..."

I hope that gives you some insight to me as a person/official/coach and why I'm involved in the game and work the levels I work.

[Reffing Hoosier]

I agree with your post Snaqwells. I guess my whole premise of posting is, I am mostly a Varsity level Ref. I have done 2 girls sectionals and did my first boys sectional this year. I am just mad at myself that I put myself in that position. i am sure we all have done something on the court we regret, but this just was out of character for me, and a situation I want to and have learned from.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Reffing Hoosier

I agree with your post Snaqwells. I guess my whole premise of posting is, I am mostly a Varsity level Ref. I have done 2 girls sectionals and did my first boys sectional this year. I am just mad at myself that I put myself in that position. i am sure we all have done something on the court we regret, but this just was out of character for me, and a situation I want to and have learned from.

Agreed. If it weren't for the mistakes I've made, I wouldn't be nearly so smart as I think I might be.

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by Reffing Hoosier

I agree with your post Snaqwells. I guess my whole premise of posting is, I am mostly a Varsity level Ref. I have done 2 girls sectionals and did my first boys sectional this year. I am just mad at myself that I put myself in that position. i am sure we all have done something on the court we regret, but this just was out of character for me, and a situation I want to and have learned from.

In the end, that's really what matters. Hopefully the kid learned as well....maybe your words did work on him.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

That's a REALLY BAD idea after an emotional outburst by a 14 year old that isn't your son or daugter

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

It very well may be....however, I have used it before and will do so in the future....

Back in the day I was told by an evaluator/high level official to never put your arm around anyone. About a year later I saw him do exactly what he said not to do.... and it worked like a charm. Go figure. Sometimes, in the end: who knows what will work and what won't.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

These are kids...there are different ways to teach them...

And putting your arm around the l'il turd and whispering nicey-nices in his ear will never teach him a damn thing either, Dr. Phil.

There is nowayinhell any official in any sport should ever let any participant in one of his games get away with telling him that he sucks. I don't care which one of the million excuses gets used either. And that goes double for youth sports!