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  #61 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 07:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonikBoom
I havnt read the whole thread, but I think this is the "fackt"" that not evryone things isa "fackt".
That's easy for you to say.....
  #62 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 08:38pm
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"Just because it's always been done that way....." is the subtle discrimination of which I speak. No one can say it isn't there.

If one doesn't like girls' basketball, that's alright, no problem. Do boys basketball.

If one doesn't like boys' basketball, that's alright, no problem. Do girls basketball.

But I do think it's unhealthy thinking in an organization to say that one has to "move up" from doing girls' basketball.

It isn't a matter of individual preference. It's the wholesale attitude of the organization that we have a problem with.

Rita
  #63 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 09:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
That's easy for you to say.....
Looks to me like your jokes are more important than your serious things? You make fun of my typing but dont address the issue. Is there universale agrement that boys games are better tahn girls games? That they are harder to ref? im just wondring if thats reilly a fact?
  #64 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 09:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita C
"Just because it's always been done that way....." is the subtle discrimination of which I speak. No one can say it isn't there.

If one doesn't like girls' basketball, that's alright, no problem. Do boys basketball.

If one doesn't like boys' basketball, that's alright, no problem. Do girls basketball.

But I do think it's unhealthy thinking in an organization to say that one has to "move up" from doing girls' basketball.

It isn't a matter of individual preference. It's the wholesale attitude of the organization that we have a problem with.

Rita
When a strong majority in any field have a similar order of preferences, that establishes a defacto order of moving up. The more people that desire a given assignment relateive to the available opportunities (of anything, not just basketball) the higher the level. It's all based on preferences, not any absolute or intrinsic value. A level that anyone can get is at the bottom. A level that only a select few achive is at the top. Is it easier to get a girls varsity game than a boys varsity game? Is it easier to get a freshman game than a varsity game? You tell me.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 11:01pm
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I don't think there is anything anyone can say to win this argument. When someone isn't as experienced, they do girl's varsity before boy's varsity. When someone can't move like they used to, they do girl's varsity after doing boy's varsity (previously). You can call it what you want and argue all day, I don't think any official on this board can really change the way things are.

All this is true unless you live in a ________ state where you have to do double ___________ headers. In that case you basically do the same amount. Being in the military and moving around frequently is the worst thing that has happened to me as an official. Putting that into perspective, I guess I'm pretty blessed overall.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 11:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonikBoom
I havnt read the whole thread, but I think this is the "fackt"" that not evryone things isa "fackt".
I'd challenge you to find me a school (at any level) where the gym is noisier during a girls game than during a boys game. (Intensity level and attendance). You might be able to find a handful of exceptions across the country (most would be colleges like the University of Tennessee.)

I'd challenge you to find me a single school where the girls team is faster and stronger than the boys team. I'd challenge you to find a school where the girls team is as fast or as strong as the boys team.

I'd challenge you to find me more than a half-dozen schools nationwide where the coach of the girls team is under more pressure than the coach of the boys team.

BITS' facts are hard to dispute. Does that make the boys game intrisically better? No. Are they more desirable for top tier officials? Definitely. JRut isn't the only official who would rather give up officiating than work a steady diet of girls' ball.

That said, I imagine a lot of female officials want to do boys varsity simply because of the status it implies in a given association. In the association I was in the past two years, the women seemed to do an equal number of boys and girls games. Then again, boys games weren't the end-all in that association (also in Colorado, but a different part of the state from Ch1town). In that group, the big deal is staying "in town" as opposed to driving to a small school game out of town. From what I saw, all the top officials worked both boys and girls games, relatively equally.

Similar to Ch1town's experience, but slightly deviated, the way to get on the assignor's good side was to be willing to drive to games out of town (as far away as two hours).
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 12:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita C
It isn't a matter of individual preference. It's the wholesale attitude of the organization that we have a problem with.

Rita
So I am supposed to like something because you like it. When I started officiating, I was not even thinking of working any girl's basketball at all. I wanted to be in the NBA, which later I decided would not be for me. There was no WNBA when I started and you could hardly find a D1 Women's game on TV. My focus was only Boy's or Men's basketball until I was not given a chance to work those games. You are not going to change my feelings because you have a problem with what I prefer doing. It is not going to happen. If you want that to change, get more women that never played any sports to officiate games. Then you will not have to worry about who officiates the girls game or not. I would never hinder any female from officiating anything they are qualified to do. But you cannot tell me that every male that grew up playing is thinking women's basketball is the way to go.

Peace
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 02:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita C
"Just because it's always been done that way....." is the subtle discrimination of which I speak. No one can say it isn't there.

If one doesn't like girls' basketball, that's alright, no problem. Do boys basketball.

If one doesn't like boys' basketball, that's alright, no problem. Do girls basketball.

But I do think it's unhealthy thinking in an organization to say that one has to "move up" from doing girls' basketball.

It isn't a matter of individual preference. It's the wholesale attitude of the organization that we have a problem with.

Rita
Why do you think this attitude is "unhealthy"? Unhealthy for whom? In what ways? And how is it really any different from attitudes of moving up from wreck ball or middle school ball?

What exactly is it about the "wholesale attitude of the organization" that bothers you so much?

And if you're willing to concede an individual's right to prefer one game over the other, why do you struggle with the right of many likeminded individuals within a group to prefer one game over the other?

And I'd like to know what you think about women officials who view working boys games as "moving up" from girls games? Does this bother you? Do you feel they are breaking ranks with the sisterhood? Do you defend this as their right to their own opinion? And what if a whole bunch of these women formed their own officials association, and as a group preferred working boys games? Would that just stick in your craw?

And, in reality, what is different about talking about "moving up" from girls games as opposed to moving up from freshman games, moving up from small school games, moving up from high school games? Because in reality, it has nothing to do with the girls, it has to do with the basketball. It's often pretty boring.

And what's this baloney with "just because it's always been done that way..."? Please quote me any post in this discussion where anybody has used that argument. It doesn't even make sense in this context. It sounds to me like you're draging in old bones from other arguments and trying to prove this is just another facet of the ongoing conspiracy to keep women down. Talk about unhealthy.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 02:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonikBoom
Looks to me like your jokes are more important than your serious things? You make fun of my typing but dont address the issue. Is there universale agrement that boys games are better tahn girls games? That they are harder to ref? im just wondring if thats reilly a fact?
If you're really just wondering, then go work 20 girls games and 20 boys games. Report back what you discover.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 03:06am
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My Two Cents ...

High school official for 27 years. Middle school girls coach for over 25 years. Parent of son who played recreation ball. Parent of a daughter who played high school varsity, helped her AAU team win an international gold medal in Spain, and is presently playing ball for her medical school in London, UK.

Maybe we're a little different here in Connecticut because of the small size of the state, with the state equally supporting both the University of Connecticut mens, and womens, basketball teams, but here's my two cents.

At the highest scholastic level, boys ball is played above the rim. Girls ball is played below the rim.

After 27 years, I believe that I can make this observation. With few exceptions, boys varsity games are viewed by a larger fan base, consisting of both student fans, and families of the players. Girls varsity games are, with few exceptions, viewed by mostly families of the players, with a smaller percentage of student fans. Most boys teams are supported by school cheerleaders. Most girls teams are not supported by cheerleaders.

I find both boys games, and girls games, equally challanging, with exception of above the rim action. After doing a girls game, or a couple of girls games, followed by a boys game, I have to remind myself, as the trail, to watch above the rim for basket interference, and goaltending.

I don't care if I get a girls varsity assignment, or a boys varsity assignment. On the other hand, I don't care if I get a small school varsity assignment, or a large school varsity assignment, boys, or girls. This past season, I didn't mind filling in for a junior varsity official who didn't show up, for a girls game. I just love officiating interscholastic basketball. Period.

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 03:16am.
  #71 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 10:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita C
It isn't a matter of individual preference. It's the wholesale attitude of the organization that we have a problem with.
The wholesale attitude you speak of is a direct result of individual preferences. It's basic economics, the more desirable an assignment is, the more difficult it is to get, and therefore it becomes a de facto sign of "moving up" to get those assignments.

There was no top-down decision to make the boys games higher level assignments than the girls games (except in those few areas that assign three officials for boys games and two for girls games.)
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 11:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
I'd challenge you to find me a school (at any level) where the gym is noisier during a girls game than during a boys game. (Intensity level and attendance). You might be able to find a handful of exceptions across the country (most would be colleges like the University of Tennessee.)

I'd challenge you to find me a single school where the girls team is faster and stronger than the boys team. I'd challenge you to find a school where the girls team is as fast or as strong as the boys team.

I'd challenge you to find me more than a half-dozen schools nationwide where the coach of the girls team is under more pressure than the coach of the boys team.

BITS' facts are hard to dispute. Does that make the boys game intrisically better? No. Are they more desirable for top tier officials? Definitely. JRut isn't the only official who would rather give up officiating than work a steady diet of girls' ball.

That said, I imagine a lot of female officials want to do boys varsity simply because of the status it implies in a given association. In the association I was in the past two years, the women seemed to do an equal number of boys and girls games. Then again, boys games weren't the end-all in that association (also in Colorado, but a different part of the state from Ch1town). In that group, the big deal is staying "in town" as opposed to driving to a small school game out of town. From what I saw, all the top officials worked both boys and girls games, relatively equally.

Similar to Ch1town's experience, but slightly deviated, the way to get on the assignor's good side was to be willing to drive to games out of town (as far away as two hours).
Snags............ there are some pretty intense, SRO, decibel breaking, girl's tournament games here in Chicagoland. It's routine during the season also for big games. Things being equal, the boys game will be on a larger scale but there are a good number of programs in Illinois where girl's basketball is just fine.

I was at a boys sectional the other night and the gym was not even half filled, conversely a few weeks ago a sectional girls game was sold out.

I do however understand your point.
  #73 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 11:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
High school official for 27 years. Middle school girls coach for over 25 years. Parent of son who played recreation ball. Parent of a daughter who played high school varsity, helped her AAU team win an international gold medal in Spain, and is presently playing ball for her medical school in London, UK.

Maybe we're a little different here in Connecticut because of the small size of the state, with the state equally supporting both the University of Connecticut mens, and womens, basketball teams, but here's my two cents.

At the highest scholastic level, boys ball is played above the rim. Girls ball is played below the rim.

After 27 years, I believe that I can make this observation. With few exceptions, boys varsity games are viewed by a larger fan base, consisting of both student fans, and families of the players. Girls varsity games are, with few exceptions, viewed by mostly families of the players, with a smaller percentage of student fans. Most boys teams are supported by school cheerleaders. Most girls teams are not supported by cheerleaders.

I find both boys games, and girls games, equally challanging, with exception of above the rim action. After doing a girls game, or a couple of girls games, followed by a boys game, I have to remind myself, as the trail, to watch above the rim for basket interference, and goaltending.

I don't care if I get a girls varsity assignment, or a boys varsity assignment. On the other hand, I don't care if I get a small school varsity assignment, or a large school varsity assignment, boys, or girls. This past season, I didn't mind filling in for a junior varsity official who didn't show up, for a girls game. I just love officiating interscholastic basketball. Period.

Well said.
  #74 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 12:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30
SnaQs............ there are some pretty intense, SRO, decibel breaking, girl's tournament games here in Chicagoland. It's routine during the season also for big games. Things being equal, the boys game will be on a larger scale but there are a good number of programs in Illinois where girl's basketball is just fine.
This is my point. Sure, if you compared the University of Tennessee women's team to the Arkansas Pine Bluff men's team, the Lady Vols probably would outdraw and out decibel the Pine Bluff fellas. My point, however, is that at the same level, the boys will almost always outdraw the girls. (Actually, it was BITS' point, I just reiterated it.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30
I was at a boys sectional the other night and the gym was not even half filled, conversely a few weeks ago a sectional girls game was sold out.
My question. Were these sectionals of the same level of high schools, and did they involve the same schools?

Not that there couldn't be some exceptions to BITS' point about attendance and intensity.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 12:16pm
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After 5 pages I think I may be the only person on here that hasn't given their opinion. First of all, I think the original post would have been somewhat interesting as most of us are finished or finishing up for the season. To bad it took the turn it did.


I tried to voice an opinion on this thread but it all came out as ramblings. I personally think it is a ridiculous topic. What type and level of basketball you enjoy working and are comfortable working is your own opinion. The perception of what type of ball is more difficult is just that, a perception. Each has their own advantages and disadvantages.
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