My season is <sniff> over

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

JR, when the OP very clearly states (no implication or hinting here) that girls' games don't get the best refs, he's being misogynistic and patronizing. When I point that out, I'm not being misandryistic, just realistic. OP thinks girls' games are LESS, LOWER, SUB. That's degrading to girls and women, and doesn't speak well of OP as a man. Nothing I said puts "men" down.

I don't have a problem with lots and lots of men, but you seem to take any comments by me about some men personally. But then, as you say, nothing changes, does it?

Nope, nothing changes. You're going to go into your "high dudgeon" mode, no matter what. If there's an insult to womanhood(real or otherwise) lurking in the bushes, hiding under the bed or skulking in the closet, you'll find it.

I already got the idea. Misogyny is everywhere. Misandry doesn't exist because it's just...well...realistic.

Btw, you think that I take comments by you about men personally? Naw, personally, I could care less. I think that it's kinda humorous....and predictable as hell. However don't you think that maybe....just maybe.....you take ANY comment about women personally to the absolute extreme, no matter how innocuous that comment may be?

Carry on the crusade, Don Quixote.

[Rizzo21]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

BTW, why did you put the word "men" in quotation marks?

Yeah, it's not like I have any questions about where I fall in the gender classification.

[canuckref]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

OK - I'll settle this. From now on, everybody work only transsexual's games.

isn't that already the case in Oregon?

[Smitty]

From a male's point of view (and a member of the same association as Juulie), there is a perception among many of the men in the association that women tend to advance faster in the association and get to the varsity level a lot faster than men with the same amount of experience. Whether this is due to women mainly being assigned to women's games, or the fact that the assignor wants to keep more women in the association, I am not sure. Most of the men in the association work both men's and women's games. Some of the women are good enough to work men's games, but I believe that most of the women get a women's only schedule. Camron would know better than I would. I know of one woman official in our association who is as good or better than at least 90% of the men in the association, and she does get men's varsity games. There are probably more, but I have not worked with them.

Personally I think women's games are harder to ref sometimes than men's games because they are reminiscent of maybe a boy's freshman game where there is more chaos than good play. Especially on rebounds, women tend to hold the ball at their waist rather than do something useful with the ball, and that invites all kinds of grabbing and hacking. However, some well played women's games are easier to work than men's games because the action tends to happen slower. Just my own observation.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Rizzo21

Yeah, it's not like I have any questions about where I fall in the gender classification.

Well glad we finally settled THAT question!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I'll just say this, and then I'm done. The reason I post my disagreements with comments such as the OP made isn't to change anyone's mind. I gave up on that a long time ago. I do want lurkers, new readers and others who look at the forum irregularly to not think that opinions such as the OP are the only ones out there. There are refs out there who don't feel that girls games are automatically lower level, and some of us who have respect for the girls games do post on this board. It's not just one way of thinking.

What about the female officials that get fast-tracked to the highest level of the women's game? I know 3 officials who worked the girls state tournament, each having less than 5 years of experience. I officiated regular-season games with 2 of them -- one was good, but nothing special on the court and the other was a terrible on-court official who hung me out to dry. Still, they got the fast-track to the state tourney while officials with 20+ years experience who happen to be white males AND better on-court officials wait for the call that will likely never come.

You OK with that?

If and when I ever work a state tourney, I'll know that I earned that call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

What about the female officials that get fast-tracked to the highest level of the women's game? I know 3 officials who worked the girls state tournament, each having less than 5 years of experience. I officiated regular-season games with 2 of them -- one was good, but nothing special on the court and the other was a terrible on-court official who hung me out to dry. Still, they got the fast-track to the state tourney while officials with 20+ years experience who happen to be white males AND better on-court officials wait for the call that will likely never come.

You OK with that?

If and when I ever work a state tourney, I'll know that I earned that call.

There is an official here that in her 5th year worked a Sectional Final on the girl's side and past so many male officials (regardless of color). To clarify, it takes many officials 10+ years to be even ready to work a Sectional Final on the Girl's side and this official (who is not bad) in her 5th overall year beat many officials that had much more playoff experience than she did. I personally do not have a problem with that because I know women are needed and wanted at that level. And for those that do not know, working a Sectional is the second-tier level in our post season out of 5 steps. When you work a Sectional, you are what we call "in the pipeline" to work a state final. You are considered to be one of the best officials in the state if you can achieve that level (right or wrong).

Peace

[just another ref]

Somebody once said (okay, it was me) that an official is a spectator with the best view in the house who also happens to carry a whistle. In other words, we enjoy watching the games. Recently, on a local sports broadcast,(Louisiana) highlights were shown consecutively from the girls sweet 16 in Hammond, a women's game from ULM, and a women's game from Louisiana Tech. All three showed games being played before almost totally empty arenas. When the sweet 16 was in Monroe, you could arrive 10 minutes before game time, walk right in and get a good seat. I have attended the boys top 28 several times in Lafayette at the Cajundome, a larger facility than any of those mentioned above. Battling the crowd is a huge pain. The lower level is always filled to capacity, and the whole place has been known to sell out. I say that calling a boys game may be more physically demanding than a girls game, (harder to keep up) but overall is easier to call than a girls game because the boys can play through things, so the game needs fewer whistles.

Having said all this, if I enjoy watching a game more because the players run faster and jump higher, does that make me a bad person?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is an official here that in her 5th year worked a Sectional Final on the girl's side and past so many male officials (regardless of color). To clarify, it takes many officials 10+ years to be even ready to work a Sectional Final on the Girl's side and this official (who is not bad) in her 5th overall year beat many officials that had much more playoff experience than she did. I personally do not have a problem with that because I know women are needed and wanted at that level. And for those that do not know, working a Sectional is the second-tier level in our post season out of 5 steps. When you work a Sectional, you are what we call "in the pipeline" to work a state final. You are considered to be one of the best officials in the state if you can achieve that level (right or wrong).

Peace

Six seasons for a sectional here, personally. I'm very happy to be assigned to the game, but I wonder about the process sometimes.

Certainly not in the pipeline here, I don't think, just cause you've made a sectional. And sectionals here is the 4th round - it takes 5 wins in most levels to make the state tourney.

Hey Juulie, Rita & any other women who frequent the board. I feel so bad because my intent was not to belittle Womens ball! I do however prefer Mens, I love working above the rim ball. I do have that right dont I?

Actually I was just attempting to show the progress I made this season (due to your helping me grow). Here in CO, the new officials start out with girls varsity ball & get the boys once they prove they can handle girls... I didn't make the rule, it's just the way it is HERE.
Hell, the few women officials here prefer to work boys games as well. I was just simply pointing out that I worked mostly girls during the regular season & must've did something right in the assignors eyes to get 3 boys post-season games my first time out the gate.

FTR, I give the same effort for any level/gender game I work. That's probably the main reason I got an opportunity so quickly.

The main thing was to thank the board for helping me grow & develop into a half-way decent official... yourself included Juulie! I learned from you as well, I read your articles & implemented some of the things you speak about into my game. Nothing but love for you & Womens Basketball!!

So thanks once again for teaching me things that can't be learned from a rulebook!

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

not nearly enough grovelling

There he is!! He's the one who started this!!! Let's get him...!!

[Back In The Saddle]

I guess some people haven't figured out that you can hate women's basketball without hating women. They are not one and the same.

Perhaps it's all just too subtle, and I don't get it, but here are the basic facts of basketball officiating life as I have learned them.

Fact: New officials are not to be trusted. Until proven otherwise it's best to assume they know too little, are too slow, don't have the skills, can't handle the pressure, and will fail if simply thrown into any group/association's biggest games.

Fact: In order to prove one's ability to anybody that assigns games, you must be able and prepared to demonstrate proficiency at working "lower level" games.

Fact: Slower, less intense, more sparsely attended games are lower level games. And any competent assigner at any level will use those games to develop and prove newer officials.

Fact: Freshman games are slower, less intense, and more sparsely attended than junior varsity games which are, in turn, slower, less intense, and more sparsely attended than varsity games. Therefore freshman games are lower level than junior varsity games, which are, in turn, lower level than varsity games.

Fact: At every level, freshman, sophmore, junior varisity, and varsity, the girls' games are slower, less intense, and more sparsely attended than the boys'.

Fact: Most officials, certainly the officials that frequent this board, want to work faster, more intense, and more well-attended games. We don't officiate for the money. We officiate for the personal challenge of getting our game on, taking the floor, nailing the calls, managing the personalities, solving the crises, performing under pressure, and just generally excelling at every aspect of what we do. And then we want to go out the next night and tackle an even bigger challenge.

Fact: That means officials must "move up" from where they are currently to the games they want to be working.

Now I don't hear any moral outrage being unloaded on officials who say they're working hard to "move up" from junior varsity to varsity. So why should any of us feel ill disposed toward an official who wants to move up from working girls' games to boys' games?

Most women officials I know are frequently overheard complaining about how they're not getting more boys varsity games. Why? Because they want to move up as much as the men do. Is anyone here willing to unload their moral outrage on these officials too? Or is it okay to think in those terms if your a woman?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Hey Juulie, Rita & any other women who frequent the board. I feel so bad because my intent was not to belittle Womens ball! I do however prefer Mens, I love working above the rim ball. I do have that right dont I?

Actually I was just attempting to show the progress I made this season (due to your helping me grow). Here in CO, the new officials start out with girls varsity ball & get the boys once they prove they can handle girls... I didn't make the rule, it's just the way it is HERE.
Hell, the few women officials here prefer to work boys games as well. I was just simply pointing out that I worked mostly girls during the regular season & must've did something right in the assignors eyes to get 3 boys post-season games my first time out the gate.

FTR, I give the same effort for any level/gender game I work. That's probably the main reason I got an opportunity so quickly.

The main thing was to thank the board for helping me grow & develop into a half-way decent official... yourself included Juulie! I learned from you as well, I read your articles & implemented some of the things you speak about into my game. Nothing but love for you & Womens Basketball!!

So thanks once again for teaching me things that can't be learned from a rulebook!

You're welcome.

[SonikBoom]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Fact: At every level, freshman, sophmore, junior varisity, and varsity, the girls' games are slower, less intense, and more sparsely attended than the boys'.

I havnt read the whole thread, but I think this is the "fackt"" that not evryone things isa "fackt".

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I guess some people haven't figured out that you can hate women's basketball without hating women. They are not one and the same.

Wait. Stop the presses. Has Drudge gotten this story yet?? I'm sure there wil be a presidential press conference in the morning to address this new development!!

btw good post.