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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 01, 2008, 02:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra44
Had this happen in a Regional Final last night. On a FT, I am C. Close violation (entering early on her shot) by shooter, I pass on the whistle........then a tweet comes from trail and a no good signal on the make.......he calls the violation. Anyone ever have this one happen?
Had this exact play happen at the end of a 1 point game, and quite frankly, the T had NO BUSINESS where he was standing trying to come in and make this call. I was L on the play, but even C said as much in the locker room after the game, that in fact, he had a perfect look and there was no vioulation.

Bottom line is, unless it's something big, TRUST YOUR PARTNER. And we ALWAYS say, ANYONE get the "non-basketball" stuff if your partner misses it.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 01, 2008, 03:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
This is not a situation of the T going out of his area to make a call. The T is supposed to get this call every time. The jersey grab from behind is a natural for the T to call. The assignor needs to smacked upside the head with an officials mechanics manual. If I was the evaluator, I would be upset if the T did NOT make this call.

MTD, Sr.
Good answer Mark.

I always tell my partners, If you see something that I miss, mostly walks in the lane when I am looking at hands for fouls, call it. I'd rather get it right than miss it.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 01, 2008, 10:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Watching a dribbler under no pressure 70' down the court is ball-watching imo. And at that distance, I doubt that I could be 100% sure of anything that I noticed to ever warrant making a call anyway.

Agree. When I do see something like the above situation, I frequently say (to myself) "If he can't call that from there, no way can I call it from here."
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 01, 2008, 11:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
No, I don't think that Billy is asking me to validate ball watching. Unless I'm reading Billy wrong, and I sureasheck might be, he's talking about something that comes up in my field of vision outside of my primary but still within...say... a half-court that's so obvious that I gotta go get it. I agree with doing something like that. That's a big difference from ball watching.

Rumpy though now....he was looking for validation for ball watching in his example. Watching a dribbler under no pressure 70' down the court is ball-watching imo. I doubt very much whether I'd even notice something that far away--that's from one endline to the far foul line. And at that distance, I doubt that I could be 100% sure of anything that I noticed to ever warrant making a call anyway.
Forget it, JR. To some around here, making a call 18 inches outside of someone's primary is indicative of ball watching.

None of us have peripheral vision or ever focus on a competitive matchup in our primary that opens up our field of vision to see something near that matchup. It's all ball watching.

Would I notice an illegal dribble? Maybe, but I honestly wouldn't be prepared to blow on it as I expect my partner to handle a 1-on-1 matchup coming from the backcourt.

Last edited by Rich; Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:19pm.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 03:51pm
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In our area we don't encourage calling out of our PCA's, but if it's needed we try to keep three things in mind before making a call:

1. Be late -- Give your partner a chance to see the play through and make the call. It is definitely better to be late on a call than to not make the right call.
2. Be right -- Definitely make sure the call you are going to make outside your PCA is the right call and not something that is borderline.
3. Be needed -- If your partner got screened out of the play then obviously he could miss something that your angle will pick up.

There are only two or three of us on the floor to catch everything so sometimes we need help from our partners to help us out when we have bad angles or are looking at a different area of the floor.

I would disagree with the evaluator and his comment...sometimes it is necessary.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 04:41pm
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Coverage areas are just that, areas, not absolute, territorial lines on the floor. The overriding goal, in my opinion, is team officiating, as in getting plays right as a team and checking ego at the door. Team officiating requires all 3 (2) officials working for angles to cover the competitive matchups and to assist each other. Far too many calls get missed because the official with the best angle doesn't want to step on the toes of the other guys. Using the lines on the floor theory we lose coverage on plays like curls and diagonal cuts where the primary official based on the lines does not have the best angle on the play and can't see the contact.

In my pregames, especially in 2 man games, we review the basic coverage, but I also mention that our goal is to referee where our partner(s) cannot, regardless of what the lines on the floor say to do. Now that being said, the further away, the less believable the call, so the more obvious the play has to be. The better your positioning, the easier it is to officiate where your partner cannot, which includes on the ball and off. Again, I'm not advocating ball-watching, just positioning in a place where you can cover where your partner can't.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 04:54pm
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I'll fess up. I'm unsure about this...

... in terms of PCA. 2 man mechanics.

I am trail.
Ball is in corner in front of lead. I am closing down watching all action outside the lead's corner, predominantly in the key.

Player in corner drives to the key, or passes to post player who turns into the key. In both instances I'm not really talking about along the endline, but rather towards the area between ft line and basket. Play is coming at me, and I know my partner will often have a view of nothing but player's backsides.
If I have a foul there, I call it. That's just been my approach this year. Haven't really had any conversation with anyone about it.

Am I poaching, or is the key 'mine' in the above scenario?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 05:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTOfficial
In our area we don't encourage calling out of our PCA's, but if it's needed we try to keep three things in mind before making a call:

1. Be late -- Give your partner a chance to see the play through and make the call. It is definitely better to be late on a call than to not make the right call.
2. Be right -- Definitely make sure the call you are going to make outside your PCA is the right call and not something that is borderline.
3. Be needed -- If your partner got screened out of the play then obviously he could miss something that your angle will pick up.

There are only two or three of us on the floor to catch everything so sometimes we need help from our partners to help us out when we have bad angles or are looking at a different area of the floor.

I would disagree with the evaluator and his comment...sometimes it is necessary.
You are new or at least have only posted twice, but this is a quality post. Contrary to what some may think, I know situations happen in a game where we may have to "extend" our coverage area. Your three points are spot on, IMO, when deciding why to do such. If those three criteria are met I have no problem with a call in my area. However, I'm not dumb enough to buy the whole "get the call right" mantra - it is asking for a license to ball watch. A lot of people will be constantly seeking opportunities to "get the call right." Mysteriously those opportunities are normally looked for on the ball. Funny how that happens.

If someone needs that much help, help them by teaching them how to officiate with angles in their primary.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 05:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_rumperee
... in terms of PCA. 2 man mechanics.

I am trail.
Ball is in corner in front of lead. I am closing down watching all action outside the lead's corner, predominantly in the key.

Player in corner drives to the key, or passes to post player who turns into the key. In both instances I'm not really talking about along the endline, but rather towards the area between ft line and basket. Play is coming at me, and I know my partner will often have a view of nothing but player's backsides.
If I have a foul there, I call it. That's just been my approach this year. Haven't really had any conversation with anyone about it.

Am I poaching, or is the key 'mine' in the above scenario?
I would say what you are saying has merit in both 2 and 3 man games. It sounds like the play is curling away from the lead meaning the lead will probably have to guess.

Also, God help you if you are still doing 2 man. A 2 man game requires many rules of thumb followed in a 3 man game be broken.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 03, 2008, 10:02am
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I'm pretty sure I'm probably not saying anything that hasn't been posted already but I figured I'd chime in with my .02 cents.

When I work with somebody I haven't worked with before, I tell them that I don't have the mentality of "I call my area, you call yours" like a lot of the old-school refs. I tell them that if they see something, then they should call it. That being said, I will call a foul in my partner's primary only if both of the following 2 conditions are met:

1. I see the foul. If I don't see it clearly, then I've got nothing.
2. I'm 110% sure my partner didn't see it. Generally this happens when my partner is the L, and there's action in the lane. The player with the ball usually does a pivot, fade away jumper, and usually gets hit on the way up with the ball. My partner will be screened to the contact, and there's just no possible way he could've seen the contact. During a subsequent time-out or time between quarters, I'll tell them what I saw. If I feel that my partner had a decent view of the play, but passed on it for whatever reason, then I've got nothing.

To the OP, I'd recommend bringing this up at 1 of your early board meetings next season, or maybe mention it to your interpreter. You don't necessarily have to mention what league you worked, or who the evaluator was, but the comments from the evaluator would be a bad habit to start for the newer officials. I'm not advocating always calling out of your primary, but there are certainly times where you should.

Quick little related play from my early days of officiating. It was maybe my 1st or 2nd season working a local youth league. Probably 5th or 6th grade boys game. I'm T jogging alongside A1 with the ball bringing it up the court. A1 gets over half-court and B1 and B2 leap forward and have A1 trapped in the corner of the front court just over the half-court line. A1 picks up his dribble and is pivoting right in front of me trying to find somebody to pass to, and I've got my eyes going back and forth between his feet, the half-court line, and the defenders hands going for the ball. All are doing good - A1 not travelling and has no half foot on half court line; B1+2 have no illegal contact on A1. All of a sudden I hear, "Tweet"...and my partner made an over-and-back call from the end-line under the basket. Yikes. Honest to goodness true story...
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 03, 2008, 10:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raida357
After the game, the evaluator said that an official should never make a call outside their area of responsibility. Do the veteran officials agree? I understand the importance of watching the play in your area and not tracking the ball, but there are some situations where you see something obvious outside your area. Don't we have an obligation to call a foul/violation if we see it? Just wondering what others think.
"Boundaries" for primary areas, as defined by lines on a sheet of paper, are guidelines. There are times when you do not get the right angle from yuor primary. If you have the best angle on a play, and it has to be called, you make the call, period. That is what is best for the game; our egos are not.

If the primary has the best angle, let him live with it unless it is an "Oh my God" foul, where the crew credibility would be at stake.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 03, 2008, 10:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ma_ref
When I work with somebody I haven't worked with before, I tell them that I don't have the mentality of "I call my area, you call yours" like a lot of the old-school refs. I tell them that if they see something, then they should call it.


Quick little related play from my early days of officiating. It was maybe my 1st or 2nd season working a local youth league. Probably 5th or 6th grade boys game. I'm T jogging alongside A1 with the ball bringing it up the court. A1 gets over half-court and B1 and B2 leap forward and have A1 trapped in the corner of the front court just over the half-court line. A1 picks up his dribble and is pivoting right in front of me trying to find somebody to pass to, and I've got my eyes going back and forth between his feet, the half-court line, and the defenders hands going for the ball. All are doing good - A1 not travelling and has no half foot on half court line; B1+2 have no illegal contact on A1. All of a sudden I hear, "Tweet"...and my partner made an over-and-back call from the end-line under the basket. Yikes. Honest to goodness true story...
Gee, maybe your partner took your advice above that's highlighted in red. He saw something outside his area and he called it. How can you say "Yikes" when he's just following your advice?
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 03, 2008, 11:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Gee, maybe your partner took your advice above that's highlighted in red. He saw something outside his area and he called it. How can you say "Yikes" when he's just following your advice?
I assume you're joking and pointing out an slight oversight in language on my part. When I tell my partners to call something if they see it, common sense comes into play here as well. Often when I work with somebody new, we talk about the various leagues and assignors we each work for. If younger officials seem interested in a particular league, I tell them to feel free to call me I can be of any help to them, regarding possibly needing references to get their feet in the door of these leagues. Just because I tell them to call, I don't expect my phone to ring at 3am.

And besides, I don't think I was contradicting myself, because my partner from the situation I described didn't see the violation, because it never happened. I was right on top of it and nobody had a clearer view than myself.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 03, 2008, 11:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_rumperee
1)In a girls JV game, I'm lead on an a endline inbounds play in the back court.
My partner is at one end, and I am at the other. No press.

Ball is inbounded, player is dribbling the ball in the back court towards the front court. Partner is practically parallel to the dribbler, looking up the court. For some strange girl-jv-player-brain-fart reason, dribbler picks up her dribble, starts dribbling again, then gets all flustered. Partner is oblivious. I blow my whistle from 70 feet away. Partner was just distracted, looking at the clock, whatever. He had no reason to believe this player would screw things up.

It had to be called.
Why? Backcourt dribbler, no pressure. Happens all the time, to be honest, and it's easy to explain to the coach if necessary. I don't see this as a "have-to-get" call.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 03, 2008, 11:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_rumperee
.. and at that point one's heart sank.

Get the call right would be my overriding concern here.
As a fledgling first year I have had a few instances that seem appropriate. Here are two that contrast:

1)In a girls JV game, I'm lead on an a endline inbounds play in the back court.
My partner is at one end, and I am at the other. No press.

Ball is inbounded, player is dribbling the ball in the back court towards the front court. Partner is practically parallel to the dribbler, looking up the court. For some strange girl-jv-player-brain-fart reason, dribbler picks up her dribble, starts dribbling again, then gets all flustered. Partner is oblivious. I blow my whistle from 70 feet away. Partner was just distracted, looking at the clock, whatever. He had no reason to believe this player would screw things up.

It had to be called.
Since you were ball-watching, maybe your partner was off-ball watching. Maybe he knew you would be looking into the backcourt so he was looking down into the paint to make sure no one was getting mugged?
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