Figure this one out

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by wyo96

The officials in our area as a matter of course, always ask the scorer how many time outs a team has as we near the end of a game, then relay it to the coach. I always let a coach know when he/she only has one time out, sometimes even if they have 2 left in a close game. I view this as preventive action.

And how would this procedure have helped in the OP's situation? All it would have done is caused a called to the commissioner/supervisor with the following verbiage:

YOUR referee told me we had 1 time-out left. Later in the game when I called that time-out YOUR referee assessed a Technical foul against my team because YOUR referee then said there was a mistake and we really had 0 times-out left.

Me, personally, this is how I handle times-out late in a game.
If there are 2 books at the table I ask them if they both have the same time-out information. If there is a discrepency then we come to a resolution right there and then before the game proceeds.

If there is only 1 book at the table then I ask for the time-out count for each team. I'm also peeking at the book at the same time to confirm what I'm being told is what is actually in the book.

I do not relay the time-out count to coaches.

[loners4me]

I am guilty of preventive officiating here also. During dead balls late in close games I tell coaches how many tiome-outs they have remaining.

I guess the situation was handles correctly and I would put 100% of the blame on the scorekeeper. We are rule enforcers not rule makers.

You can't make something up to reverse the scorekeeprs error.

2 shots and the ball.....

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And how would this procedure have helped in the OP's situation? All it would have done is caused a called to the commissioner/supervisor with the following verbiage:

YOUR referee told me we had 1 time-out left. Later in the game when I called that time-out YOUR referee assessed a Technical foul against my team because YOUR referee then said there was a mistake and we really had 0 times-out left.

Me, personally, this is how I handle times-out late in a game.
If there are 2 books at the table I ask them if they both have the same time-out information. If there is a discrepency then we come to a resolution right there and then before the game proceeds.

If there is only 1 book at the table then I ask for the time-out count for each team. I'm also peeking at the book at the same time to confirm what I'm being told is what is actually in the book.

I do not relay the time-out count to coaches.

I hate to call Tees because of bookkeeping errors or calling excessive timeouts. I will of course do what I have to do. I see no problem keeping the teams informed as to the number of time outs left in a tight game. It's common practice in my area. If I move to an area where it's frowned upon I will do what's common in that particular area.

[socalreff]

So if you announce it's 2 shots and one player rebounds the 1st shot and scores, you're going to count it when you now realize it was supposed to be a one and one?
If the official scorer tells the coach he has a timeout remaining and he uses it, how can you assess a technical foul?
In my opinion, that's a scorekeeper error that can be rectified with no penalty. I know I wouldn't be working very long if I issued a tech in this situation.

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by socalreff

So if you announce it's 2 shots and one player rebounds the 1st shot and scores, you're going to count it when you now realize it was supposed to be a one and one?
If the official scorer tells the coach he has a timeout remaining and he uses it, how can you assess a technical foul?
In my opinion, that's a scorekeeper error that can be rectified with no penalty. I know I wouldn't be working very long if I issued a tech in this situation.

be working very long if you don't...

and yes you have to count it, you can't penalize the one player who knew what was going on. That same error is the reason Tommy O'Neil one year didn't advance very far in the tourny. He announced two when it was 1-1 and one player knew what was going on and it was late in a tight ball game and did affect the outcome possibly. Wether you got it right or wrong the ball is still live after the shot. Your bad, move on.

[Kelvin green]

This is why we have the casebook... get definitive rulings where other refs have screwed it up or coaches have pushed the envelope...

dont equate 1+1 situations with time outs... the mess ups are handled differently and casebook explains.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

be working very long if you don't...

and yes you have to count it, you can't penalize the one player who knew what was going on. That same error is the reason Tommy O'Neil one year didn't advance very far in the tourny. He announced two when it was 1-1 and one player knew what was going on and it was late in a tight ball game and did affect the outcome possibly. Wether you got it right or wrong the ball is still live after the shot. Your bad, move on.

That's not true. If you announce 2 shots, then you won't count the basket in your scenario.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

I hate to call Tees because of bookkeeping errors or calling excessive timeouts. I will of course do what I have to do. I see no problem keeping the teams informed as to the number of time outs left in a tight game. It's common practice in my area. If I move to an area where it's frowned upon I will do what's common in that particular area.

I understand G but that doesn't address this particular portion of my post:

And how would this procedure have helped in the OP's situation? All it would have done is caused a called to the commissioner/supervisor with the following verbiage:

YOUR referee told me we had 1 time-out left. Later in the game when I called that time-out YOUR referee assessed a Technical foul against my team because YOUR referee then said there was a mistake and we really had 0 times-out left.

Originally Posted by w_sohl

be working very long if you don't...

and yes you have to count it, you can't penalize the one player who knew what was going on. That same error is the reason Tommy O'Neil one year didn't advance very far in the tourny. He announced two when it was 1-1 and one player knew what was going on and it was late in a tight ball game and did affect the outcome possibly. Wether you got it right or wrong the ball is still live after the shot. Your bad, move on.

Whoa Nelly!!!
This scenario is covered in the rule/case book and that is not the way you handle this scenario.

[w_sohl]

on the free throw error. It did feel wierd as I typed it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by socalreff

In my opinion, that's a scorekeeper error that can be rectified with no penalty. I know I wouldn't be working very long if I issued a tech in this situation.

It's a scorekeeper error that is not correctable, by rule. You've got it backwards. If you didn't follow the rules and issue a "T" in this situation, you wouldn't be working very long.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's a scorekeeper error that is not correctable, by rule. You've got it backwards. If you didn't follow the rules and issue a "T" in this situation, you wouldn't be working very long.

Jurassic,
Could you cite a case book play that states that this is not correctable?
Couldn't this fall under the elasticity clause?
In the case in the book about issuing false information as to the # of shots, it's a do over with no penalty to either team.
Have you ever granted a timeout incorrectly thinking you heard the coach request it?
Would you assess a technical if he didn't have any?
I have seen the situation above happen before and asked about it at camp.
Every assignor there said to get the team out of the huddle and resume from the point of interruption since they were clearly given false info by the scorer.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by socalreff

Jurassic,
Could you cite a case book play that states that this is not correctable?

Every assignor there said to get the team out of the huddle and resume from the point of interruption since they were clearly given false info by the scorer.

Can you cite a rule that says it is correctable?

You're missing the whole point.The scorer did NOT make an error per se. The team actually took 6 TO's. The scorer had 6 TO's in the official score book. Can you show me where there is any error to correct in that situation?

What you and your assignors are advocating is having the scorer MAKE a book error, not CORRECT a book error. You want them to put the WRONG number of TO's in the book---> 5.

I hope that all of those assignors that told you ignore the rules and make up your own never work in the Big Sky Conference. They don't take kindly there to officials who don't follow the rules. Come to think of it, I can't think of any conference anywhere that would let you away with over-riding the rule book just because you didn't think it was right.

Yes, the scorer gave out wrong information. That doesn't alter the fact that the scorebook was completely correct in the number of TO's taken by that team.

Is it a bad situation? Sureasheck is! As an official, can you do anything about it under the rules? No!

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Can you cite a rule that says it is correctable?

You're missing the whole point.The scorer did NOT make an error per se. The team actually took 6 TO's. The scorer had 6 TO's in the official score book. Can you show me where there is any error to correct in that situation?

What you and your assignors are advocating is having the scorer MAKE a book error, not CORRECT a book error. You want them to put the WRONG number of TO's in the book---> 5.

I hope that all of those assignors that told you ignore the rules and make up your own never work in the Big Sky Conference. They don't take kindly there to officials who don't follow the rules. Come to think of it, I can't think of any conference anywhere that would let you away with over-riding the rule book just because you didn't think it was right.

Yes, the scorer gave out wrong information. That doesn't alter the fact that the scorebook was completely correct in the number of TO's taken by that team.

Is it a bad situation? Sureasheck is! As an official, can you do anything about it under the rules? No!

I never said anything about 6 timeouts. I mentioned that the advice was to get the teams back out and don't record the timeout. Still only 5 timeouts have been recorded.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And how would this procedure have helped in the OP's situation? All it would have done is caused a called to the commissioner/supervisor with the following verbiage:

YOUR referee told me we had 1 time-out left. Later in the game when I called that time-out YOUR referee assessed a Technical foul against my team because YOUR referee then said there was a mistake and we really had 0 times-out left.

Me, personally, this is how I handle times-out late in a game.
If there are 2 books at the table I ask them if they both have the same time-out information. If there is a discrepency then we come to a resolution right there and then before the game proceeds.

If there is only 1 book at the table then I ask for the time-out count for each team. I'm also peeking at the book at the same time to confirm what I'm being told is what is actually in the book.

I do not relay the time-out count to coaches.

Also, all the referee did was relay information directly from the scorer. Is the coach going to send someone to examine the book anytime he has a question? Of course not!! They simply ask: How many fouls on #34? How many team fouls? How many timeouts do I have left?
You can't penalize a team for the official scorer's mistake. Give them the timeout they were told they have and move on.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by socalreff

You can't penalize a team for the official scorer's mistake. Give them the timeout they were told they have and move on.

If you follow the rules, you sureasheck will have to penalize a team for a scorer's mistake in this particular instance. You give them the TO and you also give them the technical foul that goes with it.

Terrible advice. You have no rules justification NOT to issue a technical foul in this situation.

Didn't you read about what happened to the officials in the Big Sky that wanted to be Mr. Nice Guy and not follow the rules too?