Figure this one out

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by mick

The assistant is allowed to go to the table ?

Also, is the head coach, or any coach, allowed to come to the table to check timeouts, personal fouls, team fouls, etc.? I thought that they were only allowed to come to the table for correctable errors, scoring mistakes, timing mistakes, and alternating possession arrow mistakes?

Help??

[Adam]

If they want to send an assistant or manager to the table during a timeout, I'm okay with that. Aside from that, they will have at least one person at the table with a book that they know and trust. Usually, they can do this whole process silently by reading lips.

[Kelvin green]

to borrow from our friend Will

There is something wrong in the state of....

I dont think this wa Denmark though.. State of Confusion, State of Intoxication, ???

How can a scorer tell somone there is two left and have it be actually 0? I assume the scoreboard did not have the TOL lights? but still... I would query hard and long here to find the potential mistake...

So we have a good idea of what's going on in the game I will ask... Most of the time I have a good idea of how many timeouts have been used, so I reverify...

Just something fishy...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Also, is the head coach, or any coach, allowed to come to the table to check timeouts, personal fouls, team fouls, etc.? I thought that they were only allowed to come to the table for correctable errors, scoring mistakes, timing mistakes, and alternating possession arrow mistakes?

Help??

10.5.1 SITUATION C: The coach of Team A leaves the bench area and goes to the table to seek information other than a correctable error: (a) during a time-out; or (b) during the intermission between the first and second quarters. RULING: A technical foul is charged directly to the coach in both (a) and (b). If this information is required, it must be secured by a manager or statistician, etc., when the clock is stopped and the ball is dead. A coach is not permitted at the table for this purpose. To allow exceptions would open the door for exploitation and would result in situations which could not be enforced consistently.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

TonyT,
I have two questions for you-
A.Can you tell me whether the scorekeeper was an adult or student manager?
B.Did the scorekeeper attempt at any point to inform the floor officials of timeouts remaining?

I would also propose that the NF add a mechanic which requires official scorers to count down referees on # remaining after each timeout is called. We are required to signal time-outs called in volleyball and this situation has only happened to me once in three years of VB and never in five years of Basketball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

10.5.1 SITUATION C: The coach of Team A leaves the bench area and goes to the table to seek information other than a correctable error: (a) during a time-out; or (b) during the intermission between the first and second quarters. RULING: A technical foul is charged directly to the coach in both (a) and (b). If this information is required, it must be secured by a manager or statistician, etc., when the clock is stopped and the ball is dead. A coach is not permitted at the table for this purpose. To allow exceptions would open the door for exploitation and would result in situations which could not be enforced consistently.

Nevadaref: Thanks. Are there any other times, other than the correctable error mentioned in the casebook situation above, when a coach may legally come to the table, for example, to correct an incorrect alternating possession arrow?

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by TonyT

2 minutes to go in sectional tourney high school game. Coach asks how many time outs?

I'm assuming he's asking during a deadball. Regardless, if he asks me, I'm going to answer him with "I DON'T KNOW COACH". That's what he has a scorer, as well as assistant coaches to keep up with that stuff. If he asks you how many fouls does his player have, are you going to check the book for that as well, and tell him?

[wyo96]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I'm assuming he's asking during a deadball. Regardless, if he asks me, I'm going to answer him with "I DON'T KNOW COACH". That's what he has a scorer, as well as assistant coaches to keep up with that stuff. If he asks you how many fouls does his player have, are you going to check the book for that as well, and tell him?

The officials in our area as a matter of course, always ask the scorer how many time outs a team has as we near the end of a game, then relay it to the coach. I always let a coach know when he/she only has one time out, sometimes even if they have 2 left in a close game. I view this as preventive action.

Are you suggesting we NEVER tell a coach how many time out he has?

I agree the OP was handled correctly given the facts presented, but it does make one wonder.

wyo96

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by wyo96

The officials in our area as a matter of course, always ask the scorer how many time outs a team has as we near the end of a game, then relay it to the coach. I always let a coach know when he/she only has one time out, sometimes even if they have 2 left in a close game. I view this as preventive action.

Are you suggesting we NEVER tell a coach how many time out he has?

I agree the OP was handled correctly given the facts presented, but it does make one wonder.

wyo96

wyo.. I'm not suggesting that at all, as a matter of fact I do the same. I'm saying if the coach asks me how many time outs he has, I would reply as i said I would and that is "Coach, I don't know".

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by wyo96

The officials in our area as a matter of course, always ask the scorer how many time outs a team has as we near the end of a game, then relay it to the coach. I always let a coach know when he/she only has one time out, sometimes even if they have 2 left in a close game. I view this as preventive action.

Are you suggesting we NEVER tell a coach how many time out he has?

I agree the OP was handled correctly given the facts presented, but it does make one wonder.

wyo96

For the record, this is NOT the proper procedure.

I wonder if refs who do the above also tell a coach how many fouls his best player has.

[w_sohl]

to tell the coach how many time outs he/she has left till that amount reaches ZERO. This situation is the exact reason why it isn't our responsibility. I don't care how many they have left till it is zero.

[budjones05]

Look at Casebook 5.8.3e

The official erroneously grants Team B a time-out in a situation when Team B cannot have one. What happens now? RULE: Team B is entitled to use the time-out since it was granted. The time-out once granted cannot be revoked and is charged to Team B. All privileges and rights permitted during a charged time-out are available to both team.

[ca_rumperee]

The scorekeeper gave erroneous information to the officials who relayed the information to the coach in an effort to use 'preventative officiating'.

At some point after that, the scorekeeper made a change to their book which recorded a timeout by the team that was ultimately penalized.

But, what we know for sure is that the scorekeeper failed to follow 2.11.6
Art. 6... Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

They did not notify the coach through the officials when they had used their last time out.

Despite this failure by the scorekeeper, the team is assessed the technical foul for requesting (and being granted) a timeout when they had none available.

Bottom line it just a "life is hard" moment for the team that is affected by this error. No recourse by rule. Correct?

[mick]

Originally Posted by wyo96

The officials in our area as a matter of course, always ask the scorer how many time outs a team has as we near the end of a game, then relay it to the coach.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For the record, this is NOT the proper procedure.

And yet, it is not an improper procedure either.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by wyo96

The officials in our area as a matter of course, always ask the scorer how many time outs a team has as we near the end of a game, then relay it to the coach. I always let a coach know when he/she only has one time out, sometimes even if they have 2 left in a close game. I view this as preventive action.

And how would this procedure have helped in the OP's situation? All it would have done is caused a called to the commissioner/supervisor with the following verbiage:

YOUR referee told me we had 1 time-out left. Later in the game when I called that time-out YOUR referee assessed a Technical foul against my team because YOUR referee then said there was a mistake and we really had 0 times-out left.

Me, personally, this is how I handle times-out late in a game.
If there are 2 books at the table I ask them if they both have the same time-out information. If there is a discrepency then we come to a resolution right there and then before the game proceeds.

If there is only 1 book at the table then I ask for the time-out count for each team. I'm also peeking at the book at the same time to confirm what I'm being told is what is actually in the book.

I do not relay the time-out count to coaches.