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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 01:45am
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Look at Casebook 5.8.3e

The official erroneously grants Team B a time-out in a situation when Team B cannot have one. What happens now? RULE: Team B is entitled to use the time-out since it was granted. The time-out once granted cannot be revoked and is charged to Team B. All privileges and rights permitted during a charged time-out are available to both team.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 01:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by budjones05
Look at Casebook 5.8.3e

The official erroneously grants Team B a time-out in a situation when Team B cannot have one. What happens now? RULE: Team B is entitled to use the time-out since it was granted. The time-out once granted cannot be revoked and is charged to Team B. All privileges and rights permitted during a charged time-out are available to both team.
So, it doesn't say that they don't get the penalty of a T for the extra. Don't read into the case plays. They are what is there, no more no less. They bought the privlidge of the TO at the cost of the T.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 08:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo96
The officials in our area as a matter of course, always ask the scorer how many time outs a team has as we near the end of a game, then relay it to the coach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
For the record, this is NOT the proper procedure.
And yet, it is not an improper procedure either.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 09:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo96
The officials in our area as a matter of course, always ask the scorer how many time outs a team has as we near the end of a game, then relay it to the coach. I always let a coach know when he/she only has one time out, sometimes even if they have 2 left in a close game. I view this as preventive action.
And how would this procedure have helped in the OP's situation? All it would have done is caused a called to the commissioner/supervisor with the following verbiage:

YOUR referee told me we had 1 time-out left. Later in the game when I called that time-out YOUR referee assessed a Technical foul against my team because YOUR referee then said there was a mistake and we really had 0 times-out left.

Me, personally, this is how I handle times-out late in a game.
If there are 2 books at the table I ask them if they both have the same time-out information. If there is a discrepency then we come to a resolution right there and then before the game proceeds.

If there is only 1 book at the table then I ask for the time-out count for each team. I'm also peeking at the book at the same time to confirm what I'm being told is what is actually in the book.

I do not relay the time-out count to coaches.
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Last edited by Raymond; Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:19am.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 09:48am
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I am guilty of preventive officiating here also. During dead balls late in close games I tell coaches how many tiome-outs they have remaining.

I guess the situation was handles correctly and I would put 100% of the blame on the scorekeeper. We are rule enforcers not rule makers.

You can't make something up to reverse the scorekeeprs error.

2 shots and the ball.....
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 10:10am
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Is this a fair assessment...

The scorekeeper gave erroneous information to the officials who relayed the information to the coach in an effort to use 'preventative officiating'.

At some point after that, the scorekeeper made a change to their book which recorded a timeout by the team that was ultimately penalized.

But, what we know for sure is that the scorekeeper failed to follow 2.11.6
Art. 6... Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

They did not notify the coach through the officials when they had used their last time out.

Despite this failure by the scorekeeper, the team is assessed the technical foul for requesting (and being granted) a timeout when they had none available.

Bottom line it just a "life is hard" moment for the team that is affected by this error. No recourse by rule. Correct?
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 10:54am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
2-11-6...tells us exactly what is supposed to be done.
And if the Home Scorer is caught cheating. What do you do? I suppose you can go by the book. But still it would be an awful way to lose a game.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 11:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
And how would this procedure have helped in the OP's situation? All it would have done is caused a called to the commissioner/supervisor with the following verbiage:

YOUR referee told me we had 1 time-out left. Later in the game when I called that time-out YOUR referee assessed a Technical foul against my team because YOUR referee then said there was a mistake and we really had 0 times-out left.

Me, personally, this is how I handle times-out late in a game.
If there are 2 books at the table I ask them if they both have the same time-out information. If there is a discrepency then we come to a resolution right there and then before the game proceeds.

If there is only 1 book at the table then I ask for the time-out count for each team. I'm also peeking at the book at the same time to confirm what I'm being told is what is actually in the book.

I do not relay the time-out count to coaches.
I hate to call Tees because of bookkeeping errors or calling excessive timeouts. I will of course do what I have to do. I see no problem keeping the teams informed as to the number of time outs left in a tight game. It's common practice in my area. If I move to an area where it's frowned upon I will do what's common in that particular area.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 11:43am
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Question.

So if you announce it's 2 shots and one player rebounds the 1st shot and scores, you're going to count it when you now realize it was supposed to be a one and one?
If the official scorer tells the coach he has a timeout remaining and he uses it, how can you assess a technical foul?
In my opinion, that's a scorekeeper error that can be rectified with no penalty. I know I wouldn't be working very long if I issued a tech in this situation.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 11:52am
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You won't...

Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff
So if you announce it's 2 shots and one player rebounds the 1st shot and scores, you're going to count it when you now realize it was supposed to be a one and one?
If the official scorer tells the coach he has a timeout remaining and he uses it, how can you assess a technical foul?
In my opinion, that's a scorekeeper error that can be rectified with no penalty. I know I wouldn't be working very long if I issued a tech in this situation.
be working very long if you don't...

and yes you have to count it, you can't penalize the one player who knew what was going on. That same error is the reason Tommy O'Neil one year didn't advance very far in the tourny. He announced two when it was 1-1 and one player knew what was going on and it was late in a tight ball game and did affect the outcome possibly. Wether you got it right or wrong the ball is still live after the shot. Your bad, move on.
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Last edited by w_sohl; Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 11:56am.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 12:00pm
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This is why we have the casebook... get definitive rulings where other refs have screwed it up or coaches have pushed the envelope...

dont equate 1+1 situations with time outs... the mess ups are handled differently and casebook explains.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 12:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w_sohl
be working very long if you don't...

and yes you have to count it, you can't penalize the one player who knew what was going on. That same error is the reason Tommy O'Neil one year didn't advance very far in the tourny. He announced two when it was 1-1 and one player knew what was going on and it was late in a tight ball game and did affect the outcome possibly. Wether you got it right or wrong the ball is still live after the shot. Your bad, move on.
That's not true. If you announce 2 shots, then you won't count the basket in your scenario.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 12:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordon30307
I hate to call Tees because of bookkeeping errors or calling excessive timeouts. I will of course do what I have to do. I see no problem keeping the teams informed as to the number of time outs left in a tight game. It's common practice in my area. If I move to an area where it's frowned upon I will do what's common in that particular area.
I understand G but that doesn't address this particular portion of my post:
Quote:
And how would this procedure have helped in the OP's situation? All it would have done is caused a called to the commissioner/supervisor with the following verbiage:

YOUR referee told me we had 1 time-out left. Later in the game when I called that time-out YOUR referee assessed a Technical foul against my team because YOUR referee then said there was a mistake and we really had 0 times-out left.
Quote:
Originally Posted by w_sohl
be working very long if you don't...

and yes you have to count it, you can't penalize the one player who knew what was going on. That same error is the reason Tommy O'Neil one year didn't advance very far in the tourny. He announced two when it was 1-1 and one player knew what was going on and it was late in a tight ball game and did affect the outcome possibly. Wether you got it right or wrong the ball is still live after the shot. Your bad, move on.
Whoa Nelly!!!
This scenario is covered in the rule/case book and that is not the way you handle this scenario.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 12:32pm
I drank what?
 
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I stand corrected...

on the free throw error. It did feel wierd as I typed it.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 03:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
And how would this procedure have helped in the OP's situation? All it would have done is caused a called to the commissioner/supervisor with the following verbiage:

YOUR referee told me we had 1 time-out left. Later in the game when I called that time-out YOUR referee assessed a Technical foul against my team because YOUR referee then said there was a mistake and we really had 0 times-out left.

Me, personally, this is how I handle times-out late in a game.
If there are 2 books at the table I ask them if they both have the same time-out information. If there is a discrepency then we come to a resolution right there and then before the game proceeds.

If there is only 1 book at the table then I ask for the time-out count for each team. I'm also peeking at the book at the same time to confirm what I'm being told is what is actually in the book.

I do not relay the time-out count to coaches.
Also, all the referee did was relay information directly from the scorer. Is the coach going to send someone to examine the book anytime he has a question? Of course not!! They simply ask: How many fouls on #34? How many team fouls? How many timeouts do I have left?
You can't penalize a team for the official scorer's mistake. Give them the timeout they were told they have and move on.
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