Two rules questions...please help...

[trippingants4134]

when a player fouls out...how many minutes does the coach have to decide on a substitution??

when a ball is held by two players...how long does the ball need to be held for it to be called a jump ball?

Thanks
a Concerned Coach...

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by trippingants4134
when a player fouls out...how many minutes does the coach have to decide on a substitution??

when a ball is held by two players...how long does the ball need to be held for it to be called a jump ball?

Thanks
a Concerned Coach...

When a player has committed his or her 5th foul, the ideal situation is to have the scorekeeper notify you as you're reporting the foul. An experienced official will already know that that player just picked up his 5th foul.

After you have completed your signals, etc. to the table, the calling official notifies the head coach of the fouled out player that a player has fouled out. At this point, the coach has 30 seconds to make a substitution. You then proceed to tell the player that he has fouled out. Depending on the situation, you might want to ask the timer to time 30 seconds for you. In this case, I usually ask him to give me a nod at 20 seconds, where I will ask the coach to provide a substitute.

Edit:

There's no time requirement for a held ball to be called. I usually give each player a good tug. If after that, it's fairly clear that one person will get the ball with another tug, then I let it go. If however, they both have an equal oppoutunity to the ball after the first tug, I call it. Of course, if two players are rolling on the floor, or even falling to the floor, I have a much quicker whislte, usually to prevent an injury.

Mike

[Jurassic Referee]

Juggler,just a liitle point.You should always tell the scorer to time the 30 seconds,and then tell you when the 30 seconds is up.That procedures somewhere in the casebook,but I ain't looking it up.Good preventive officiating to remind the coach to get his butt in gear,though.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Juggler,just a liitle point.You should always tell the scorer to time the 30 seconds,and then tell you when the 30 seconds is up.That procedures somewhere in the casebook,but I ain't looking it up.Good preventive officiating to remind the coach to get his butt in gear,though.

When coaches see me reffing their game, they immediately go into high respect mode and they would never think of taking more than 30 seconds, hence and I rarely need to bring up the issue of having just 30 seconds for a substitution.

LOL

But you're right, Jurassic. Good preventative officiating.

Mike

[mick]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

When a player has committed his or her 5th foul, the ideal situation is to have the scorekeeper notify you as you're reporting the foul. An experienced official will already know that that player just picked up his 5th foul.

Mike

Mike,
I gotta get more experience.
mick

[mick]

Originally posted by trippingants4134

when a ball is held by two players...how long does the ball need to be held for it to be called a jump ball?

trippingants,

I like to allow the players to determine posession within a couple of seconds before I stop play.

Sometimes, if the play appears to be getting ugly (possible injury) and with neither player having solid control, I will call a jump in order to arrest additional action. This is not per rule, but my choice.

Other times, the players could just be trying to get the ball for several seconds with nobody getting control. Bodies all over the place and no whistles. Just a lot of thumbs after a "soapy" ball.

But, there is also the "immediate jump ball" where a defender's hand stops the release of a pass or a shot from the ball handler's. For this play there should be no delay.

mick

[TxBktball03]

Sometimes it's difficult to tell at game speed (remember, I'm new! haha) the difference between an immediate jump ball, a blocked shot, and when that action is actually a foul...so I go to the well of knowledge... =)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

When coaches see me reffing their game, they immediately go into high respect mode and they would never think of taking more than 30 seconds, hence and I rarely need to bring up the issue of having just 30 seconds for a substitution.

LOL

But you're right, Jurassic. Good preventative officiating.

Mike

SmartA$$ young whippersnapper!Grumble,grumble,grumble....

[mick]

Originally posted by TxBktball03
Sometimes it's difficult to tell at game speed (remember, I'm new! haha) the difference between an immediate jump ball, a blocked shot, and when that action is actually a foul...so I go to the well of knowledge... =)

TxBktball03,
See if this works for you.

Immediate : ball remains in offensive player's hand shortly after contact; ... just cannot release it.

Blocked shot : ball leaves offensive player's hand shortly after contact.

Foul : Wrist leaves offensive player's hand shortly before the ball, or wrist/arm at least gets hit before the ball is contacted.

How much is shortly? As much, or as little, as you want it to be.

mick

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by mick

trippingants,

I like to allow the players to determine posession within a couple of seconds before I stop play.

Sometimes, if the play appears to be getting ugly (possible injury) and with neither player having solid control, I will call a jump in order to arrest additional action. This is not per rule, but my choice.

Other times, the players could just be trying to get the ball for several seconds with nobody getting control. Bodies all over the place and no whistles. Just a lot of thumbs after a "soapy" ball.

But, there is also the "immediate jump ball" where a defender's hand stops the release of a pass or a shot from the ball handler's. For this play there should be no delay.

mick

I take exception to your first paragraph concerning the play getting ugly. The scenario in your first paragraph is not different that the scenario in your second paragraph. It is my opinion that officials call held balls too soon. It is not an official's job to arrest additional action. If a foul occurs before then call the foul, but do not call a held ball when there is none just to prevent the possibility of a foul.

I guess this leads to one of my pet peeves. Get rid of this abomination called alternating possession. FIBA and NBA/WNBA uses the jump ball to put the ball into play for all held balls.

Just two weeks ago, I officiated a boys' H.S. freshmen game that if we could used a jump ball to put the ball back into play after a held ball we could have had the ball back into play a lot sooner. Here is the situation: Visiting team does not provide a scorer, so the home scorebook (official scorebook) is the only scorebook at the scorer's table. The home team gains control of the ball off the jump ball to start the third overtime period (yeah, yeah, I know), I become the Trail opposite the table and check that the arrow is pointing toward's the visitor's basket and it is. We have no held balls or jump ball situations until there is a held ball under the visitors basket with thirty seconds left in the game and the visitors are down by three points. Up until this point in the overtime period we had not had any timeouts, so there were no opportunities to go to the table in the late going to check the book. You guessed it the horn sounds and I as the Referee (I violated the Danny Doss's No. 1 Rule of basketball officiating, never be the R) was called to Table. The Scorebook has the Home team with the arrow. I called my partner over and we discussed it for all of thirty seconds and declared the Scorebook incorrect and gave the ball to the Visitors. If we had been able to go to the jump ball we would not have had the mess we had. The Home Coach did not like it one bit and the Scorer was not happy either, but we managed not to have a technical foul on the Home Coach.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I take exception to your first paragraph concerning the play getting ugly. The scenario in your first paragraph is not different that the scenario in your second paragraph. It is my opinion that officials call held balls too soon. It is not an official's job to arrest additional action. If a foul occurs before then call the foul, but do not call a held ball when there is none just to prevent the possibility of a foul.[/B]

Mark,you can take exception with me,too.I've called quick jump balls,just like Mick,if I felt the situation warranted it.I don't think you can really fault an official if he's doing it with the idea of stopping possible problems with potential rough play,and the quick jump ball would not have any real effect on the final score.The call depends on what the official wants to accomplish at that particular point in that particular game.Might not be by the book,but it can save everybody a lot of headaches at times--and not just the referees.
Mea culpa,too!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 26th, 2002 at 08:50 AM]

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I take exception to your first paragraph concerning the play getting ugly. The scenario in your first paragraph is not different that the scenario in your second paragraph. It is my opinion that officials call held balls too soon. It is not an official's job to arrest additional action. If a foul occurs before then call the foul, but do not call a held ball when there is none just to prevent the possibility of a foul.

Mea culpa, young man.

[ReadyToRef]

A lot of times, the level of the game and the skill level determines the speed with which I call a jump ball. If I am calling a missle school girls game, I call it very fast. Why? The times I didn't, elbows start flying and tempers soar. HS boys, I let them tug a little.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by ReadyToRef
If I am calling a missle school girls game, I call it very fast.

Is this a school for teaching girls how to make missles, or how to launch the missles? Either way, it's gotta be a tough league!!

Chuck

[bluezebra]

"An experienced official will already know that that player just picked up his 5th foul"

Why, and how, in the world would you want to keep track of fouls? There's enough to do on the court without keeping mental scorekeeping.

Bob