mental dilemma!

[Ralph Stubenthal]

Certain rules have caused me mental anguish over the years. The topic I posed a couple months ago about the kid going to sleep in the paint on defense and getting plowed out from the side was one one such rule(anybody remember the one I'm referring to?) Another one that bothers me is the 3 second rule. Of couse the purpose of the rule is to keep the jolly green giant from setting up camp under the rim and taking the overhead lob to the basket. But what do you do in the case of the little bitty guy who is just lost and "falls asleep" in the paint on offense? He hasn't had a ball passed to him all game and you're sure it ain't gonna happen the rest of the game either. Do you penalize him for being there 3 seconds and give the ball to the other team or just warn him and let it go? If you don't call it, you are sort of penalizing the other team by not calling it thus giving them the ball. It is kind of a case of "the letter of the law" versus "the spirit of the law." How do you folks feel about this?

[Bart Tyson]

after 3 sec. say "clear or move". I don't think the size matters. the def. still has to defend the paint. little guy or big guy i will treat the same.

[Mark Padgett]

It's not your job to "level the playing field." Certain attributes are advantages in this sport; things such as speed, size, strength, shooting ability, smarts, etc. These attributes are to be rewarded when used properly, but are not to be penalized by cutting slack to a player because he may lack them. That's what you are doing when you make a 3 second call against a guy because he's big, and don't make the same call against another player because he's small.

If that's what the "intent" of the rule was, then the rule would read something like: "A 3 second count is not to be called against a player under 5'10" tall, a player who doesn't understand where he is on the court and/or a player who is so bad, that even if he is camped in the lane it would not be an advantage to his team."

Last time I looked, it didn't say that.

[Oz Referee]

You need to keep advantage/disadvantage in mind.

For instance, imagine you have the point just in the front court, with his back to the basket, trying to beat his man one-on-one. Down in the low post, on the weak side, you have one (not so bright) player camped just inside the key. Although technically there could be a three second call, the player/team is not gaining any advantage by having him there.

However, as soon as the ball handler faces the basket, passes towards the key, or faces up for the shot - three seconds as the player in the key now has gained an advantage.

I'm sure Mark Snr will disagree with my intepretation here - and go to great length to explain that basketball is not soccer, and that we should call this violation immediately. My only response, I am an Australian FIBA referee - and this is how we have been instructed to call this situation in Australia.

Having said all that - I don't believe size makes any difference. Ref the big guy the same as the little guy. I like to try and talk them out of the key as much as possible - especially at lower age/skill levels.

[williebfree]

My ultimate decision is that... You call it when you see it. If it is at the lower levels (5 & 6th grade) you give a quick explanation of what the violation is, especially if the player gives you that "RCA dog look". Call it as often as you see it or leave it alone for the entire game.

I used to think that giving a verbal warning once at each end was the answer, but soon realized that my warning was only heard by a few players and I refused to continue this practice throughout the game. However, by doing this, I was creating a disadvantage to future (currently bench-bound) players because they probably had not heard me. Additionally, I was venturing into the area of coaching. YIKES!

[ChuckElias]

The very first game I officiated was considered my "floor test". I worked a 5th and 6th grade boys game and was observed by a very good, very experienced official. My first lesson in basketball officiating was occasioned by a typical howler monkey yelling for 3 seconds and the lesson went like this:

Him: What's the purpose of the 3-second rule?

Me: Shrug, blank stare, overwhelming anxiety. (My first game, remember.)

Him: It's to keep the big guy from taking unfair advantage under the basket. (Long pause) Do you see any "big guys" out there?

This is one of my few concessions to the "dark side". Let it go. This falls under my "big deal" clause. It's not a big deal, so don't stop the game. Make every effort to get him out verbally. Then count to 10. If he lays down and pulls out a pillow, then call it.

Chuck

[Bart Tyson]

ChuchElias, Let me sleep on that.

[tharbert]

I've become more of a talker under the basket. If a player as bad as you described sits high in the paint without crashing the boards or placing the defence at a disadantage, I would continue the verbal approach or even call the kid over during a dead ball and explain what I'm saying to him during the game. Size doesn't play a significant roll here. Once I've exhausted my preventive arsenal, I will call it.

I'm more likely to work with the players to avoid having to stop play for this violation. This is more like telling the defense to get their "hands off" or making sure everyone is in their blocks during a free throw.

[Slider]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
You need to keep advantage/disadvantage in mind.
...However, as soon as the ball handler faces the basket, passes towards the key, or faces up for the shot - three seconds as the player in the key now has gained an advantage.

The problem is the advantage is often hidden on this play (the offense benefits because the defense sags back towards the paint to account for the player there).

So, IMO, call it anytime on anybody (adjust for level of competitors).

[coach mb]

Call it.

If the player made a mistake ... they'll appreciate it, you made them a better player.

If it's someone that's taking advantage, you won't have wasted your breath asking him to vacate. You'll be calling it again.

[mick]

Originally posted by coach mb
Call it.

If the player made a mistake ... they'll appreciate it, you made them a better player.

If it's someone that's taking advantage, you won't have wasted your breath asking him to vacate. You'll be calling it again.

And sometimes, calling violations on lesser players allows the parent to see why their kid isn't playing as much as the parent thinks that they ought to be playing.

[Ralph Stubenthal]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
It's not your job to "level the playing field." Certain attributes are advantages in this sport; things such as speed, size, strength, shooting ability, smarts, etc. These attributes are to be rewarded when used properly, but are not to be penalized by cutting slack to a player because he may lack them. That's what you are doing when you make a 3 second call against a guy because he's big, and don't make the same call against another player because he's small.

If that's what the "intent" of the rule was, then the rule would read something like: "A 3 second count is not to be called against a player under 5'10" tall, a player who doesn't understand where he is on the court and/or a player who is so bad, that even if he is camped in the lane it would not be an advantage to his team."

Last time I looked, it didn't say that.

Mark, I tend to agree and always have called it on both types of players but I believe you misunderstood the situation. I didn't mean to give the impression that 1 team had a big guy who got a 3 second call every time he violated and the other team was given breaks all night. I simply was referencing 2 different scenarios with the intent of gaining other officials insight on how they call the game. I don't agree with your explanation in the quote above. To me, the intent of the rule is very important towards understanding the game. The last time I looked, I didn't see where the rule book gave a definitive and complete description of just when and when not to T a coach either. Some common sense and a feel for the game have to be important in all calls; if not, then just build a machine to call the game. It can enforce the letter of the law without regard for how the game is supposed to be played.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
To me, the intent of the rule is very important towards understanding the game. The last time I looked, I didn't see where the rule book gave a definitive and complete description of just when and when not to T a coach either.

Sure it does. It's called NF rule 10.4.

[crew]

last summer i worked a game and the weaker team had a player that had a very visible mental disability. he played man defense on both ends of the court(offense and defense). the man he was guarding hung out in the lane all game. i got together with my partners and discussed the handicap and said we are not going to call 3 sec. on this guy no matter what. both coaches recognized this and thanked us for not embarrassing the young fellow. he actually got to take 3 or 4 shots during the game and the defense played well to allow a clear shot. it was good sportsmanship all around and fun to work.

[ReadyToRef]

In our association, we've talked about the three second call and how often it should be called. Msot say you should call it even less than a T. That's how I called it most of the season-rarely. Except for one middle school game. Coach subs in a fairly big guy for middle school, 6-4, 230 pounds or so. He camps under the basket. I tell him to move. Ignored. Tweet. 3 seconds. This occurs four straight possessions. Guy never moved. Coach finally changed offenses.