Does anybody read the damn rule book anymore?

[BktBallRef]

Some of the questions I'm seeing on different forums are mind boggling! Not to make fun of anyone but c'mon!!

"I argue that we have a double-bonus and should shoot two. Refs say when the foul occurred that there were only 9 team fouls. I tell him, I like his logic but I think he's wrong. Should we have had a double-bonus?"

"A shooting one shot after a foul on a made basket. I am on the baseline, shot missed, B rebounds and turns around and throws me the ball, yep, I catch it! What now?"

"The ball is tipped by Home and goes OOB, who has the ball or do you tip again?"

"The ball is tipped by home and away touches, no control, and ball goes oob, what?

Folks, this is simple stuff.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Some of the questions I'm seeing on different forums are mind boggling! Not to make fun of anyone but c'mon!!

"I argue that we have a double-bonus and should shoot two. Refs say when the foul occurred that there were only 9 team fouls. I tell him, I like his logic but I think he's wrong. Should we have had a double-bonus?"

"A shooting one shot after a foul on a made basket. I am on the baseline, shot missed, B rebounds and turns around and throws me the ball, yep, I catch it! What now?"

"The ball is tipped by Home and goes OOB, who has the ball or do you tip again?"

"The ball is tipped by home and away touches, no control, and ball goes oob, what?

Folks, this is simple stuff.

In the past, a lot of the people who've posted on this board have been fairly experienced, or have had other references outside this baord.

Looks to me like the latest bunch of new people are brand new to reffing and perhaps less connected. They see some of the more complex, obscure interps and become uneasy about everything. I know, I've been there.

Some things seem so obvious to the newbie but they're wrong, such as a player with the ball in her bc who throws an errant pass off the foot of a referee in the fc which then comes back to that same player. It looks legal, but it's not. The newbie, fresh out of the stands, sees that interp and thinks, "Yikes, nothing is simple."

So they start asking about everything. I think us dinosaurs need to keep encouraging them to look things up (giving citations and asking Socratic questions), and quoting standard phrases they can use for making decisions (such as "you are where you were until you get where you're going"). That way, they can actually learn both what the rules are and how to help themselves learn more.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

In the past, a lot of the people who've posted on this board have been fairly experienced, or have had other references outside this baord.

Looks to me like the latest bunch of new people are brand new to reffing and perhaps less connected. They see some of the more complex, obscure interps and become uneasy about everything. I know, I've been there.

Some things seem so obvious to the newbie but they're wrong, such as a player with the ball in her bc who throws an errant pass off the foot of a referee in the fc which then comes back to that same player. It looks legal, but it's not. The newbie, fresh out of the stands, sees that interp and thinks, "Yikes, nothing is simple."

So they start asking about everything. I think us dinosaurs need to keep encouraging them to look things up (giving citations and asking Socratic questions), and quoting standard phrases they can use for making decisions (such as "you are where you were until you get where you're going"). That way, they can actually learn both what the rules are and how to help themselves learn more.

Good post..........

I don't think we want to scare away new officials and it is the place to ask anything without being mocked, hopefully. I empathize with BBref though regarding basic questions that the average fan would have a grasp on.

[Indianaref]

What's worse is when it's coaches' asking these Q.

[truerookie]

I believe BBR is on to something here. We have arrived to the point where some of us do not want to reference the rulebook OR casebook when we can turn on the computer and get the answer to any question we may have along with the citation. In a sense, rules study is falling behind. JMO.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I believe BBR is on to something here. We have arrived to the point where some of us do not want to reference the rulebook OR casebook when we can turn on the computer and get the answer to any question we may have along with the citation. In a sense, rules study is falling behind. JMO.

I raised the same (or substantially similar) issue a couple of months ago.

The problem, imo, is not that the official won't learn the answer to his/her specific question, but that s/he won't learn anything else from the rules book.

When I was first starting out, many was the time when I'd search through the rule book for one thing, and find out something else that "I knew for certain that just wan't so."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by truerookie

We have arrived to the point where some of us do not want to reference the rulebook or casebook when we can turn on the computer and get the answer to any question we may have along with the citation. In a sense, rules study is falling behind.

I agree with truerookie, to a degree. I spend a great deal of time studying my rule book, and casebook, especially in the fall, because I'm a member of my local board's training committee, specifically the subcommittee that trains new officials on NFHS rules, so that they will, hopefully, pass the IAABO rules exam. Another subcommittee deals with mechanics, and administers a floor exam, after they pass the written exam.

Once the season starts, I will continue to study my rulebook, casebook, and mechanics manual, however, I have found this Forum to be a great source of, usually, reliable information. Very often, if I have a question about an obscure rule, that might take me quite a while to look up in a book, I can post a thread on the Forum, and get the answer from one of our distinguished, and reliable, Forum members right away. Also, to your point about "rules study is falling behind", logging onto the Forum everyday, whether we're posting, or just reading, is a form, be it, a very modern form, of rules study.
Back to your post. I admit, sometimes I get lazy. When a Forum member posts an answer with just the numerical citation, i.e. 10-1-2a, I will often say to myself, "Damn, now I'm going to have get out of my comfortable computer chair, go into another room, or worse, downstairs into the cold garage, to get to my bag, get my rulebook out of my bag, and look up the citation."

[BktBallRef]

Juules, the first question I listed has been asked a dozen times this year.

The other three were asked by an Internet forum veteran.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Back to your post. I admit, sometimes I get lazy. When a Forum member posts an answer with just the numerical citation, i.e. 10-1-2a, I will often say to myself, "Damn, now I'm going to have get out of my comfortable computer chair, go into another room, or worse, downstairs into the cold garage, to get to my bag, get my rulebook out of my bag, and look up the citation."

What's wrong with a little exercise?

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Some of the questions I'm seeing on different forums are mind boggling! Not to make fun of anyone but c'mon!!

"I argue that we have a double-bonus and should shoot two. Refs say when the foul occurred that there were only 9 team fouls. I tell him, I like his logic but I think he's wrong. Should we have had a double-bonus?"

Folks, this is simple stuff.

What can I say?

This one fell through the cracks of all that I have learned this year.

It may have been discussed here in the past 4 months that I've been viewing, but I missed it.

It did not come up in any rules learning sessions that I had. It was not on the test. Its not covered in the 20 fundamentals, with the exception of #12 FOULS SHALL BE ADMINISTERED IN THE ORDER THAT THEY OCCUR. To me this doesn't specifically address my question. It has not come up in any game that I have worked, coached or watched this year. Again, 'square one' stuff but new to me.

So what to do? Sometimes going to the rule book is easy, sometimes its not.
In this case, all I can find is Rule 10 Summary:
3. bonus free throw:
a. For seventh, eight and ninth team foul each half, if first free throw is successful.
b. Beginning with 10th team foul each half whether or not first free throw is successful.

Is there something more someplace else? Help a brother out and point me towards it.

[BktBallRef]

It's simple. In your situation, the foul was the 9th team foul. It doesn't change and become the 10th team foul when the T is called. It's the 9th team foul. 1 & 1.

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Very often, if I have a question about an obscure rule, that might take me quite a while to look up in a book, I can post a thread on the Forum, and get the answer from one of our distinguished, and reliable, Forum members right away. Also, to your point about "rules study is falling behind", logging onto the Forum everyday, whether we're posting, or just reading, is a form, be it, a very modern form, of rules study.
Back to your post. I admit, sometimes I get lazy. When a Forum member posts an answer with just the numerical citation, i.e. 10-1-2a, I will often say to myself, "Damn, now I'm going to have get out of my comfortable computer chair, go into another room, or worse, downstairs into the cold garage, to get to my bag, get my rulebook out of my bag, and look up the citation."

Bookmark these:
Rules 06-07
Cases 06-07

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

It's simple. In your situation, the foul was the 9th team foul. It doesn't change and become the 10th team foul when the T is called. It's the 9th team foul. 1 & 1.

I've had my question answered in the original thread. I am now currently slightly less ignorant than before.

[BktBallRef]

ca_rumperee, I applaud you for posting all season, asking questions, and being interested in learning and improving. As I said, you're weren't the only one to ask about that situation. I've seen it posted a dozen times this year on this on other boards. But it's just as simple as I posted above.

[DonInKansas]

I find myself at a loss someties when it comes to complex rule interps. I just finished up my first year with no major complaints, but I still had a lot of situations where I just had that feeling I messed something up. Out of the 18 dates I worked this season, only 2 of them were with experienced officials, and those were the LAST 2 dates. Needless to say, it was hard to get good on-court feedback from people who were just as ignorant as I was.

Yes, I need to keep reading the rules, but sometimes all the book-learnin' in the world doesn't help when that guy gets the rebound and throws you the ball and your brain freezes. Yes, I need to get to a clinic, which will require a 3-4 hour drive and some days off of work which is hard to explain to my wife, let alone my boss since I work with a grand total of 4 people and one would have to work overtime to cover me.

Just reading this board has helped me immensely, first in baseball, and now here since I started picking up basketball. The community here actually helped push me into it since I've lurked and read about the nuances and fun you guys have (most of the time. ) To all the vets, remember that for 1 guy asking the "simple" question and you answer, there are a whole lot of guys like me lurking, reading that answer, and going "huh, I didn't know that." The training that some of you receive is light years ahead of some like me who only have to pass 1 open book rules test to get Varsity certified and will be offered games due to a lack of officials. I didn't get certified this year for that pure fact. I'm not working Varsity until I feel I'm ready for it.